The other day one of our readers took issue with the fact that I don’t think the U.S. should have gotten involved in the Vietnam War. I further perturbed him by indicating that the North Vietnamese were freedom fighters. Isn’t that true?
I decided to spend some more time researching the Vietnam War. But first I took a look at the long history of Vietnam. Here is what I discovered, in summary:
- Vietnam has been populated for over 3,000 years. During much of that time, the country has been subjugated to foreign rule, first by the Chinese, later by the French.
- Ho Chi Minh was very much a freedom fighter. He defeated the French and signed a treaty, which split Vietnam in two. The treaty stipulated reunification, after two years, but the U.S. backed the Southern President, who turned out to be an ass, and Minh was left with little resort but to invade the South.
- The U.S. had no business intervening in what was a local conflict involving the Vietnamese. But we did and the results were not good for anyone.
- Latinos paid a heavy price as soldiers in the American army in Vietnam, but today many Vietnamese residents in the U.S. spend a lot of time maligning Mexican immigrants.
Drum from Sông Đà, Vietnam. Dong Son II culture. Mid-1st millennium BC. Bronze
Let’s take a look at a recap of Vietnamese history, courtesy of the Viet Touch website:
The first kingdom of the Viet, was founded some 3,000 years ago, and the first Viet Chuong or Lac Viet kingdom in North Viet Nam was founded 2,400 years ago. Some historians believe that the Vietnamese were originally of the Malay-Polynesian, a sea-oriented race. Most scholars by now, accept that the Vietnamese are not descended from one single racial group, that they are instead a racial mixture of Austro-Indonesian and Mongolian races.
By 211 BC, a Chinese commander in the south had built his own kingdom of Nam Viet (South Viet; Chinese, Nan Yüeh); the young state of Au Lac, a precursor to Vietnam, was included.
From 111 to 43 BC, Vietnam was under Chinese rule, with sporadic rebellions. Finally, in 939, Vietnamese forces under Ngo Quyen took advantage of chaotic conditions in China to defeat local occupation troops and set up an independent state. Ngo Quyen’s death a few years later ushered in a period of civil strife, but in the early 11th century the first of the great Vietnamese dynasties was founded. Under the astute leadership of several dynamic rulers, the Ly dynasty ruled Viet Nam for more than 200 years, from 1010 to 1225.
Finally, in 939, Vietnamese forces under Ngo Quyen took advantage of chaotic conditions in China to defeat local occupation troops and set up an independent state. Ngo Quyen’s death a few years later ushered in a period of civil strife, but in the early 11th century the first of the great Vietnamese dynasties was founded. Under the astute leadership of several dynamic rulers, the Ly dynasty ruled Viet Nam for more than 200 years, from 1010 to 1225.
In the 15th century, Vietnamese forces captured the Cham capital south of present-day Da Nang and virtually destroyed the kingdom. For the next several generations, Viet Nam continued its historic “march to the south,” wiping up the remnants of the Cham Kingdom and gradually approaching the marshy flatlands of the Mekong delta. There it confronted a new foe, the Khmer Empire, which had once been the most powerful state in the region. By the late 16th century, however, it had declined, and it offered little resistance to Vietnamese encroachment. By the end of the 17th century, Viet Nam had occupied the lower Mekong delta and began to advance to the west, threatening to transform the disintegrating Khmer state into a mere protectorate.
In 1407 Viet Nam was again conquered by Chinese troops. For two decades, the Ming dynasty attempted to reintegrate Viet Nam into the empire, but in 1428, resistance forces under the rebel leader Le Loi dealt the Chinese a decisive defeat and restored Vietnamese independence.
By the late 18th century, the Le dynasty was near collapse. Vast rice lands were controlled by grasping feudal lords. Angry peasants—led by the Tay Son brothers—revolted, and in 1789 Nguyen Hue, the ablest of the brothers, briefly restored Viet Nam to united rule. Nguyen Hue died shortly after ascending the throne; a few years later Nguyen Anh, an heir to the Nguyen house in the south, defeated the Tay Son armies. As Emperor Gia Long, he established a new dynasty in 1802.
A 100 piastre note from French Indochina, circa 1954
Then came the French.
A French missionary, Pierre Pigneau de Behaine, had raised a mercenary force to help Nguyen Anh seize the throne in the hope that the new emperor would provide France with trading and missionary privileges, but his hopes were disappointed. The Nguyen dynasty was suspicious of French influence. Roman Catholic missionaries and their Vietnamese converts were persecuted, and a few were executed during the 1830s. Religious groups in France demanded action from the government in Paris. When similar pressure was exerted by commercial and military interests, Emperor Napoleon III approved the launching of a naval expedition in 1858 to punish the Vietnamese and force the court to accept a French protectorate.
In 1862 the court at Hue agreed to cede several provinces in the Mekong delta (later called Cochin China) to France. In the 1880s the French returned to the offensive, launching an attack on the north. After severe defeats, the Vietnamese accepted a French protectorate over the remaining territory of Viet Nam.
The U.S. rejected Ho Chi Minh, so he rejected democracy
French rule truly sucked. Peasants struggled under heavy taxes and high rents. Workers in factories, in coal mines, and on rubber plantations labored in abysmal conditions for low wages. By the early 1920s, nationalist parties began to demand reform and independence. In 1930 the revolutionary Ho Chi Minh formed an Indochinese Communist party.
In 1940, Japan demanded and received the right to place Viet Nam under military occupation, restricting the local French administration to figurehead authority. Seizing the opportunity, the Communists organized the broad Vietminh Front and prepared to launch an uprising at the war’s end. The Vietminh (short for Viet Nam Doc Lap Dong Minh, or League for the Independence of Viet Nam) emphasized moderate reform and national independence rather than specifically Communist aims.
When the Japanese surrendered to the Allies in August 1945, Vietminh forces arose throughout Viet Nam and declared the establishment of an independent republic in Hanoi. The French, however, were unwilling to concede independence and in October drove the Vietminh and other nationalist groups out of the south. For more than a year the French and the Vietminh sought a negotiated solution, but the talks, held in France, failed to resolve differences, and war broke out in December 1946.
In 1953 and 1954 the French fortified a base at Dien Bien Phu. After months of siege and heavy casualties, the Vietminh overran the fortress in a decisive battle. As a consequence, the French government could no longer resist pressure from a war-weary populace at home and in June 1954 agreed to negotiations to end the war. At a conference held in Geneva the two sides accepted an interim compromise to end the war. They divided the country at the 17th parallel, with the Vietminh in the North and the French and their Vietnamese supporters in the South. To avoid permanent partition, a political protocol was drawn up, calling for national elections to reunify the country two years after the signing of the treaty.
After Geneva, the Vietminh in Hanoi refrained from armed struggle and began to build a Communist society. In the southern capital, Saigon, Bao Dai soon gave way to a new regime under the staunch anti-Communist president Ngo Dinh Diem. With diplomatic support from the United States, Diem refused to hold elections and attempted to destroy Communist influence in the South. By 1959, however, Diem was in trouble. His unwillingness to tolerate domestic opposition, his alleged favoritism of fellow Roman Catholics, and the failure of his social and economic programs seriously alienated key groups in the populace and led to rising unrest. The Communists decided it was time to resume their revolutionary war.
Ho Chi Minh died in 1969 and was succeeded by another leader of the revolution, Le Duan. The new U.S. president, Richard Nixon, continued Johnson’s policy while gradually withdrawing U.S. troops. In January 1973 the war temporarily came to an end with the signing of a peace agreement in Paris. The settlement provided for the total removal of remaining U.S. troops, while Hanoi tacitly agreed to accept the Thieu regime in preparation for new national elections. The agreement soon fell apart, however, and in early 1975 the Communists launched a military offensive. In six weeks, the resistance of the Thieu regime collapsed, and on April 30 the Communists seized power in Saigon.
As we know, thousands of Vietnamese refugees were settled in the U.S. Today, a number of them, in Little Saigon, spend a lot of time maligning Latino immigrants.
Vietnam Memorial
What price did Latinos pay in Vietnam?
- In Vietnam Reconsidered, a book published by Harper & Row in 1984 and edited by Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Harrison Salisbury, Ruben Treviso wrote: “One out of every two Hispanics who went to Vietnam served in a combat unit.” “One out of every five Hispanics who went to Vietnam was killed in action.”
- The Latino Experience in U.S. History, a book published for elementary schools by Globe Fearon in 1994 and written by several University professors stated: “Latinos fighting in Vietnam had a 19 percent casualty rate compared to a 12 percent rate for U.S. soldiers as a whole.”
- Hispanics in America’s Defense, a book published in 1989 by the U.S. Department of Defense, states: “In 1969, a study was released which examined Hispanics participation in the war by analyzing casualty figures from two periods: one from January 1961 to February 1967, and the other from December 1967 to March 1969. The study revealed that for the two periods, 8,016 men from the States of Arizona, California, Colorado, New Mexico, and Texas had been killed. Of the number, over 19 percent had Hispanic surnames.”
- 3,741 names on the Vietnam Memorial in D.C., are Spanish surnames. Therefore, 6.4% of our country’s total casualties were Latinos. The figure is likely higher as it does not count Latinos who did not have Spanish surnames.
- Therefore, the accurate number of Latino casualties during the Vietnam War was approximately 7% of the total deaths. At that time Latinos represented approximately 5% of the total population in the U.S. Furthermore, there were Latino casualties were from every one of our 50 states.
- 5,572 soldiers from California died during the Vietnam War. Listed in the National Archives and Records Administration (www.nara.gov/nara.electronic/cahrviet.html) are their full names, home city, date of birth, date of death and if by hostile action. Of those 5,572 names, 823 are Spanish surnamed. Therefore 15% of the California casualties were Latino. At that time, Latinos represented approximately 7% of California’s population.
- From Texas, 23% of the casualties were Latino. Jose Maria Herrera, a doctoral candidate at Purdue University, wrote in his 1998 Master’s Thesis in the History Department of the University of Texas at El Paso, that “of the 3,405 Texans killed in the Vietnam War, 784 were Latinos.”
- Furthermore, in New Mexico, Herrera found that “while Hispanics made up 27 percent of that state’s population, they accounted for 44 percent of the deaths.”
- On April 22, 2000, Elaine Woo wrote in a Los Angeles Times article: “Latinos answered the call to combat in Vietnam in unprecedented numbers and paid a heavy price: One in two Latinos who went to Vietnam served in a combat unit, 1 in 3 were wounded in action, 1 in 5 we killed in action.”
Both Assemblyman Van Tran and Supervisor Janet Nguyen have openly maligned Latino immigrants. There are other Vietnamese politicians, such as Hugh Nguyen, Phu Nguyen, Long Pham and Quang Pham, who have not done so. In fact Hugh Nguyen is married to a Latina.
Mexicans and the Vietnamese in our country have much in common. Both come from countries with peasants and a large agricultural base. Both countries were invaded by the French. Both countries had Catholicsm forced on the peasantry, by Euro invaders. Both countries have been invaded by the U.S. However, only the Vietnamese were allowed to come here legally, even though the U.S. essentially stole the Southwest, including California, from Mexico.
Will Latino and Viet voters in Orange County ever come to see how much they have in common? That is hard to say. I think the young people offer some hope. But older Viet residents remain fixated on commies and are mired in the Republican Party. They may never find a way to find commonality with their Latino neighbors in Orange County.
Art, I once had an older man (WWII Vet) tell me that Ho Chi Min, had approached the US State Department (Where he told me he worked) to help them gain freedom from the French occupation, and wanting to set up a US type of Government, but “we” denied him and help, because the French were our “allies”. Did you , or has anybody out there ever heard of this before? Any confirmation? Just Curious…
That’s exactly right Bigmarkod. In the aftermath of WWI (the War to end all Wars NOT) our President Woodrow Wilson talked a lot of idealistic anti-imperialist rhetoric about all colonized nations throwing off their shackles and the US giving them a helping hand.
And young Ho Chi Minh took him at his word, and approached him to ask for help – approached him in Paris, 1919, if I remember right. Realpolitick intervened like always, and our alliance with the France trumped our idealist rhetoric.
That’s off the top of my head. I guess someone could look it up. Maybe that interesting fact should have been mentioned in this post. History sure would have been different.
Also, think if we hadn’t overthrown Iran’s last great elected leader, Mossadegh, in 1953. But that’s a whole other story…..
Bigmarkod,
Yep, Vern nailed it. Ho Chi Minh was a spy for us but when he asked for our help, we rebuffed him. The rest is history.
“Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.” The best recount of VietNam history I’ve read is “The Two VietNam’s”, by Bernard Fall, a Frenchman who grew up in that country and was later killed while walking with a U.S.Marine patrol as a journalist. He described VietNam’s history as 3,000 years of almost unbroken warfare and hostility with the Han Chinese, something that Karl Marx was not going to change. The sole reason for our involvement there was to counter Red China’s hedgemony throughout Asia. The year after we left, the newly re-united VietNam did that for us by expelling the several million ethnic Chinese from their country, whipping the Chinese army in a short border war, and crushing Cambodia’s Khmer Rouge. Three years ago my son spent his Christmas vacation in Hoi An, the exact coastal town, just south of DaNang, where I had been in combat in 1970-71 with the 1st Marine Regiment. Today it has beachfront resorts with palm frond cabana’s, looking every bit like a Corona beer commercial. My son and his wife had a wonderful time there. Would things have been better if we had won that war? I believe we sacrificed 50,000 American lives for failing to study and understand history.
SAHS Teacher,
We also failed to understand history in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Perhaps we need more historians in our U.S. government!
You are wrong on some of your point, when Red Vietnam went to the border conflict with china, U.S. was on the Chinese side as an effort to counter the Soviet back Vietnam,( although Carter in his meeting with Deng xiaoping in 1979 attempted to persuade Beijing diplomatically punish Vietnam instead of go to war). same thing for Khmer Rouge, the West had always back KR and refused to recognize the Vietnam back Cambodian regime.
You completely missed the big picture here, from Carter to Reagan, the basic U.S. foreign policy was to contain Vietnam (obviously because its close relation to the Soviets). U.S. was on China’s side at the time (although Carter in 1979 did attempt to persuade Beijing use diplomacy but military on Vietnam). Same thing for Khmer Rouge, the West and China preferred to back the KR than to recognize the Vietnamese back the Cambodian regime, Interesting history eh? Nixon and Kissinger’s broad strategy, inherited by Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush till the end of cold war.
The Republicans brought in a guy down here in Mission Viejo last year, talking about that Iran and his overthrow, and for the life of me I can’t remember the speakers name (Larry, who was that guy) and he pointed out our meddling is part of the problem we have there to this day. Not to mention our recent meddling in the Balkans, Eastern Europe, Asia, Etc…. I read a book a few years ago called “Confessions of an economic hitman”…. I didn’t like it at first, but once you read it and look back at what he says, and the picture he paints, you could not ask for a better illustration of how we interfere…..everywhere.
One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s cause for civil unrest in Little Saigon. Thanks O.J. for setting the record straight regarding Ho Chi Minh. Can you please post some fotos of Mr. Ho. I’ve read so much about him but would like to see his image.
Interesting finding , Bigmarkod and Art.
I have heard that Fidel Castro also approached the goverment before he overthrew Cuba, asking to help him change Cuba.
Back to your point Art
It sad to see all the hypocrisy from all these Vietnamese leaders who run on the “hating illegals” bandwagon yet don’t realize that these people are doing the same thing people who fled Vietnam want…a better life.
Freedom and opportunity seemed very limited in old Vietnam but you would think from all these OC South Viet types that freedom was limitless, opportunities were everywhere… seems to me only the well off, those with gov’t connections had freedom. While the poor, like in Mexico had/have nothing.
I believe the VIETNAM war was a mistakes and too many Americans/Vietnamese lost their lives for some Soviet/US muscle showdown.
My grandfather and uncle served over there but I have never really sat down and asked about their view.
However, I understand that if the country of Vietnam and Mexico were switched,it would be Vietnamese that would be invading US, not Mexicans. I really don’t think you would have much vocal oppostion from the Janet an tran types but then again I think ypu would have it from the War-torn Mexican refugees. Yes, people are inhierently tribal and for the most part try to build coalitions with strong groups(anti-illegal groups or voting electorate)not weaker ones(illegals)
Interesting thought: a refugee Mexican…Imagine the possibilities with all the benefits that refugee membership has…that’s equalizing the playing field.
Jose,
Very true. We screwed up in Cuba too.
We may be the alleged greatest democracy in the world, but time and again the U.S. sides with the bad guys, against those who are seeking freedom. The results are sadly predictable.
Mexicans have been totally scapegoated in this country. What a waste. I hope Obama can follow in Reagan’s footsteps and craft another amnesty…
Too often, people talk about the Vietnam War and refer to books written by US scholars or by Vietnamese Communists. To truly understand the reasons for the Vietnam War and whether Ho Chi Minh was really a communist or nationalist, one must understand what truly happened during the August Revolution of 1945 and the events leading up to it. I humbly offer the South’s Perspective.
“Ho Chi Minh, a disguised Nationalist – A real Opportunist”
On August 15, 1945 Japanese Emperor Hirohito went on the airwaves throughout Japan to announce that the Japanese had surrendered to the Allied Forces after two atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6th and 9th respectively. In the days immediately following the Japanese surrender, on August 19th in Vietnam, a huge number of demonstrations took place in Ha Noi, which would ultimately lead to the formation of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh on September 2, 1945.
Scholars and Historians have generally dismissed the first and second Vietnam War as a part of a greater communist strategy to draw countries into the communist sphere against capitalism. In retrospect, people like Robert McNamara now generally view the war as a war of nationalism and independence. The Viet Cong, the North Vietnamese Army and their predecessor the Viet Minh, are viewed as nationalists first, and communists second. However, while this might be the case with the average northerner, the TRUTH is that Ho Chi Minh and the leaders of the Viet Minh were only disguised nationalist. The Vietnamese people joined the Viet Minh because they stood for independence. They did not care if the Viet Minh were communists or nationalist. Any movement that had an anti-colonial position, at the time, had the people’s support. The Viet Minh used this enthusiasm and passion for independence to achieve their own interests. Their motive, in the end, was to do exactly what the U.S. had feared they were going to do in the first place; turn Indochina into a sphere of influence for the Communists International.
EVENTS LEADING UP TO THE AUGUST REVOLUTION
On the evening of March 9, 1945 Japanese forces attacked French strongholds throughout Southeast Asia and the Pacific. The French forces included a few French officials, but mostly were comprised of Vietnamese soldiers, were no match for the awesome and discipline Japanese military. Within a span of less than 24 hours, the Japanese military had taken control of the situation and crushed all French forces. Most of the remaining French officials were either imprisoned or fled across the border to China. The Japanese commander announced, “Japan gives independence back to the Vietnamese people and intends to work with Vietnam to build Southeast Asia into a peaceful and prosperous region.” Japan then replaced the once-controlled French region with the government of Bao Dai, the person in the imperial line who’s to become the 13th king of the Nguyen Dynasty.
The events of March 9, 1945 in Vietnam was a surprise to many people because, by this time, Allied forces had taken control of WWII; the Soviet forces had liberated Auschwitz on January 26, Manila fell to the Allies on February 4, U.S. lands on Iwo Jima on February 26, and Danzig and Poznan fell to the Soviets in the end of February. So, even though Japanese forces had taken control of Vietnam, their loss in WWII was impending. It was clear that Allied forces were winning the war. This situation created an imminent power vacuum in Vietnam. The French was kicked out and the Japanese were soon to follow. This situation created a great opportunity for Vietnamese revolutionary forces, of which some have been active since the beginning of the century, to take back their country.
On April 17, Bao Dai appointed historian Tran Trong Kim as prime minister. However, the Tran Trong Kim administration consisted of mainly educators, intellectuals, and old mandarins and officers under the French, and no representation from the various revolutionary groups. This government was distant with the people and did not understand the importance of the independence movement in Vietnam. For these reasons, even after the riddance of the French, the newly formed government did not gain the support of the people.
In the meantime, there was a famine in North Vietnam. The Japanese army had allocated a great deal of money to buy up all the rice to support the Japanese army. At the same time, there was also a food shortage in China, so, many of the Chinese ex-patriots smuggled a large amount of the country’s rice supply to aid the Chinese. The government tried to bring the rice supply from the South to aid the North, but many of the roads and railroads were destroyed by Allied bombings. In the face of this crisis, the Tran Trong Kim government was in a situation of ineffectiveness, not being able to address the crisis affecting the people. In the end, the famine of 1945 led to almost two million Vietnamese deaths.
After the French was removed from power, the Bao Dai and Tran Trong Kim government were not able to address the desire for liberty amongst the revolutionary forces and the yearnings of the people. Along with that, the government could not solve the issue of food shortages. This combination of issues led to a deeper desire from the people for a total revolution in Vietnam. On August 6th and 9th respectively, the U.S. dropped the two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One week later, Emperor Hirohito announced the Japanese surrender to the Allies. This put Tran Trong Kim and King Bao Dai, who had given his resignation letter to the King, in a wait and see mode.
In this power vacuum, the people’s desire for change would come in the form of the Communist Viet Minh during the days of demonstration in Ha Noi. On the morning of August 19, 1945, thousands of people had massed a demonstration in front of the Ha Noi Opera House. Viet Minh Cadres, without Ho Chi Minh, used this opportunity to hand out their flags (red with yellow star) and leaflets and led the people in chanting anti-colonialist slogans. During the chaos, they were able to mobilize the people to turn the demonstration into a march to the palace of the imperial delegate to North Vietnam. When the demonstrators arrived at the mansion, Dr. Nguyen Xuan Chu, in a state of helplessness, allowed the demonstrators to enter. The 30 Viet Minh cadres who were leading the demonstration forced the Governor’s security guards to lay down their arms, and assumed power of the government from that day.
On August 25th, Bao Dai abdicated his power and on the 28th, Ho Chi Minh returned to Vietnam, met with his top Viet Minh officials, and the next day, the 29th, formed an interim government. On September 2, 1945 at Ba Dinh Square, in front of 200,000 people, Ho Chi Minh would declare Vietnam’s independence, in which he would be the president of the newly formed Democratic Republic of Vietnam.
So, how did the Viet Minh come into power so quickly, with relatively little opposition? Where were the other revolutionary groups? Were the demonstrators in Ba Dinh Square Viet Minh’s people?
Eyewitnesses are living proof of how the events really occurred. The late musician Nguyen Hien, was a part of demonstrations, recalled that after Hirohito announced Japan’s surrender on the 15th of August, demonstrators started to form at Ba Dinh Square and the Opera House on the 17th, demanding some formal announcement by the Bao Dai government. Thousands of people formed on the 19th and in the midst of the chaos, a small group of Viet Minh cadres passed out their flags and began chanting pro-independence slogans. The masses, of whom the majority did not even know of the Viet Minh, likened to this enthusiasm and went along with the chanting. Like I mentioned earlier, the people were so disgusted with the French and Japanese that they were willing to seek anything new. The Viet Minh used this opportunity to mobilize the people and made the demonstrations look as though it was organized by them, when reality that was not the case.
In the meantime, during this power vacuum, the various revolutionary groups, most significantly the Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang (Nationalist Party), a sister organization with the Chinese Koumingtang, were still in China hurrying to return to Vietnam. But it was too late. Viet Minh cadres had, in just four days after the Hirihito announcement, made it seem like they had mobilized the masses and, in the end, were able to usurp the power. By the time Ho Chi Minh arrived in Hanoi, everything was in place for his takeover.
In summary, there are many factors that led to the August Revolution; the attitudes of the people towards colonialists, the food shortages of 1945, the distrust of the Bao Dai regime, revolutionary forces, etc. Because of these factors the Viet Minh was able to quickly and successfully grab the power during the days of demonstrations in Hanoi.
In order to truly understand the Viet Minh, one must understand it from its inception, the members in the group and the revolutionary environment in Vietnam during the 1920s, 30s and 40s.
ERA OF REVOLUTION IN VIETNAM
One of the earliest members of the Vietnamese revolution is Phan Boi Chau. He founded the “Dong Du” era in which young Vietnamese traveled to other Asian countries (mainly Japan) to learn about freedom, rights and modernization. In 1925, Ho Chi Minh joined Pha Boi Chau’s Tam Tam Xa group. Ho was able to convince members of this group to turn Phan Boi Chau over to French authorities. When in control of Tam Tam Xa, he turned it into the Vietnam Thanh Nien Cach Mang Dong Minh Hoi (Vietnam Revolutionary Youth League). Historians Melvin Gurtov, in “The First Vietnam Crisis” casually mentions Ho as the founder of the Revolutionary Youth League and calls him the first person to form a communist party in Vietnam, However, he fails to mention that Ho sold out Phan Boi Chau, took control of his organization and turned it into his own communist movement. This would be the first of many cunning and deceptive efforts to place Ho Chi Minh, in the lens of history, as a Vietnamese revolutionary leader.
In the 1930s, after 50 years of being under French rule, many revolutionary groups began to organize in Vietnam. They were:
• Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang (Vietnam Nationalist Party)
• Dong Duong Cong Sang (Indochina Communist Party)
• Viet Nam Phuc Quoc Dong Minh Hoi (Vietnam Restoration Alliance)
• Dai Viet Quoc Dan Dang (Great Viet Party)
• Vietnam Dan Chinh Dang
• Vietnam Duy Dan Dang
• Indochinese Communist Party (Viet Minh after 1941)
Of these groups, only the Indochinese Communist Party (ICP) was communists. All the others were considered nationalist groups. Nationalist and communist were differentiated by the group’s ideologies and operations.
The Vietnam Nationalist Party (VNQDD) is the most renown of these groups. Founded in 1927 by Nguyen Thai Hoc, at the age of 25, this group consisted of many youths, intellectuals, and ordinary people who wanted to joint the anti-colonialist revolution. This groups is still around today. In 1930, the VNQDD commenced a mass uprising against the French. However, their rebellion fell and Nguyen Thai Hoc and 12 of his comrades were executed at the guillotine. Many of the group’s members were captured and imprisoned. Their activities were stifled throughout the 30s, but were beginning to regroup towards the end of the decade. Even though the rebellion failed, it gave the group much credibility and reputation amongst the people. The other nationalist groups had worthy contributions as well, but it will not be mentioned here.
The ICP are a union of the three communist groups who were operating individually in Indochina. In a secret telegram on September 27, 1929, the Communist International (ComIntern) ordered these groups to unite and form one movement in order to more effectively mobilize the people under communist ideologies. Hence, on March 2, 1930, Ho Chi Minh, using the name Ly Thuy at the time, united the groups, and formed the Indochinese Communist Party to include movements in Laos and Cambodia.
There were also several revolutionaries of whom were not a part of any groups, but had gain credibility after many years of anti-colonialist activities; they were Nguyen Hai Than, Ho Hoc Lam and Phan Boi Chau (who had been house arrested since 1925) Nguyen Hai Than and Ho Hoc Lam saw the need to unify the groups together, and in 1934 convened a conference with the representation of all the aforementioned groups, formed the Vietnam Doc Lap Dong Minh Hoi (whose name Ho Chi Minh began using as Viet Minh after 1941). However, after one year, this group ceased to operate because VNQDD pulled out for fear of communist influences by Ho and the ComIntern.
In 1940, the battles between Japan and China became more intense. Chang Kai Shek, head of the Chinese Nationalist Party, and a friend to the Allies, decided to support the Vietnamese fight against the Japanese. And because he was fighting communist China, he called on all Vietnamese groups, including the ICP, to unite. He promised to aid the Vietnamese in their cause in terms of finance and arms. This support was beneficial to Shek because it meant more people fighting the Japanese and less people (ICP) supporting Mao. When all the groups united in 1942, they called themselves the Vietnam Cach Mang Dong Minh Hoi – VNCMDMH (Vietnamese Revolutionary League).
In the meantime, in February of 1941, Ho Chi Minh, under the name Nguyen Ai Quoc this time, secretly convened the eighth Plenum of the ICP Central Committee meeting near the Vietnam/ China border. The result of this meeting is that the ICP decided to now call itself the Viet Nam Doc Lap Dong Minh Hoi (VNDLDMH), which was founded by all the groups, nationalist and communists, just seven years earlier under Nguyen Hai Than. After 10 years of operating as the Indochinese Communist Party, with little results, Ho Chi Minh decided to change the name of the group to a more nationalistic name, with previous credibility, in order to better mobilize the people for the communist objective.
So, by 1942, Ho was acting as a member of the VNCMDMH with various nationalistic groups, while at the same time secretly running his VNDLDMH, which consist mostly of Vietnamese communist officials. In 1943 the VNCMDMH, with the financial support of China, decided to engage in missions to enter Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh volunteered for this mission. He was immediately given the money and about 20 cadres to carry out this mission. With money, with extra cadres, with the support of Americans (because he opposed Japan), Ho Chi Minh went back to Vietnam, broke his promise with the VNCMDMH and rejoined with his VNDLDMH cadres and began to operate officially under the name Viet Minh.
Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh, with the above evidence, are proven to merely be opportunists. In 1925, he sold out one of Vietnam’s most famous revolutionaries Phan Boi Chau and turned PBC’s Tam Tam Xa group into the Vietnam Revolutionary Youth League, the first communist movement in Indochina. In 1941 he re-created the VNDLDMH (Viet Minh), which was founded seven years earlier by many groups, as a disguise to carry out his ICP agenda. In 1942, as a member of the VNCMDMH, he took their money for his own Viet Minh operations. In 1945 the Viet Minh used the demonstrations to mobilize the mass and take over Vietnam during the power vacuum created after the Japanese surrender in WWII. Many history books now claim that Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist, only using Soviet influences to achieve his goals of independence for Vietnam. Even though he did achieve independence for Vietnam, a closer look at his motives and actions to achieve that independence would suggest that he was also communist agent, whose nationalistic ends were only a part of a greater scheme to turn Indochina into zone of influence for the Communist International.
Art, you can say the North Vietnamese wanted independence from foreign influence… but that doesn’t make them freedom fighters. There was absolutely no freedom in Vietnam after the war. The south Vietnamese were raped and tortured by the communists. Their properties and freedom were taken away… and the horror went on and on. Just ask your buddy Quang. It’s an insult to consider the Viet Cong Freedom Fighters… and Hell yes Art, you’re anti Vietnamese when condone Sean Mill mocking a Vietnamese about Agent Orange and Pirates raping refugees.
It is not just about criticizing the war Art… stop spinning.
“However, I understand that if the country of Vietnam and Mexico were switched,it would be Vietnamese that would be invading US, not Mexicans.”
Wrong Jose. If they were switched, the Viet would have a thriving economy and wouldn’t need to invade the US. Look at Canada. After 1975, the Viet Cong took the country back a 50 years… but recently, they’ve wised up and their economy has done quite well in recent years. If Vietnam had a 100 years of freedom and independence, we would do quite well.
Lam,
Given the history of Vietnam, if that country were switched with Mexico then it would have been conquered by everyone in the Western hemisphere by now.
You are wrong about the Vietnamese being superior to Mexicans. No race is superior to any other race. Everyone can achieve greatness.
As for Mill’s comments, those are his and his alone. I have no control over what he writes, but in all fairness he was responding to the idiot commenters at Bolsavik with a taste of their own medicine. One might argue that they had it coming.
Lastly, the government of South Vietnam broke a treaty that said they would reunify with the North. They and the rest of the folks who worked with the French occupiers have a lot of blood on their hands.
Ho Chi Minh was indeed a freedom fighter, but unfortunately the U.S. government rebuffed him and the results speak for themselves.
Lam, you are an embarassment to my race. You are ignorant and your style represents the old school racist bs that we need to get rid of in Little Saigon.. Get an education. May ngu nhu cho may oi.
Good job Art, lotsa work on this post and pretty much I agree with everything here.
Just, I don’t think Lam Pho’s big disagreement was over you criticizing the war.
There were lots of things said on this thread:
http://orangejuiceblog.com/2010/04/van-tran-supporters-demean-soldiers-who-fought-in-vietnam/comment-page-1/#comment-125258
But none of it was about criticizing or not criticizing the war. Well, I’m sure Lam will be here and speak for himself. I’m sure not taking sides. Except that the war should never have happened, and we should have helped Ho Chi Minh back in 1920, and helped Mossadegh in 1953, and two huge clusterf**ks in the world would have turned out much differently.
Vern,
Take a look at what Lam said in his comment. I wrote this post to see if I could goad him into admitting that he is just as anti-Mexican as Janet Nguyen and Van Tran. Well, it is apparent that he believes the Vietnamese are racially superior to Mexicans.
I don’t think any one race is better than the next. Anyone can achieve great things. Too bad Lam feels otherwise.
Art,
The Vietnamese and the rest of the Asian community in large part will never come over to the Lefties and your Democrat pals. They remember all too well the lies of men like John Kerry and Hanoi Jane and that it was Democrats in Congress who removed the funding of the South Vietnamese government we promised to support after finally achieving peace that led to more than a million people trying to flee the maoist butchers in whatever floated, with half of them left lying in the south China Sea. The blood on the hands of the left stains the memories of all rational people.
And if the Spanish Mexicans were content to first give the lands they have stolen back to the mayans and the incas, then they might have a morally equivalent argument to make.
So back to your original question. If I am against the reconquista of southern US, and want to tell “The Race” just because you’re asked to obey the law doesn’t mean you can scream “racism”, and tell a moral relativist like you that mexicans crossing the Rio is not the same as having your arm chopped off by utopian butchers, and that makes me a racist. Then, yes, Art, wishing Vietnamese more years of horror and torture and millions more into subjugation “if only they hadn’t put up a fight”, is being anti-Vietnamese.
Terry,
As usual my friend, I have no clue what the heck you are talking about, but I hope you are having a nice birthday weekend!
Have you ever checked out the demographics of most Public Housing/Senior in Orange County? The vast majority are filled with Asians. Is it that their is no need in the Hispanic Community or that Asians have gamed the system? I’ve worked near several of this Federally funded buildings and you see their children pull up in BMW’s sporting the latest fashions while granny gets free/cheap housing thanks to the U.S. taxpayers. You never read anything about this.
Ho Ho Ho,
LOL! Janet Ngyen even opened another office in Little Saigon so they could apply for more benefits…
Why not a forum or debate, “Was Ho Chi Minh a Freedom Fighter?” sponsored by O.J. Blog? May 1st might be a good day to hold it. I bet you would get lots of P.R. and a huge turn out for the event. Let’s see how much the Vietnamese community really values free speech.
After reading slanted versions of Viet history posted here on the OJ.
It appears that the history of VietNam is a history of failure to control their boarders.
If they were able to keep the foreigners out, Who knows what they past and future would have been.
cook,
Slanted? I excerpted the history from legitimate websites and provided links to them. They were not slanted in any way.
The Vietnamese didn’t suffer due to illegal immigrants. They were invaded, many times, by the Chinese, the Japanese and the French. The Viets themselves turned around and invaded Cambodia.
Lastly, if the Native Americans had been able to keep the Euros out, I wonder what their past and future would have been?
“Just, I don’t think Lam Pho’s big disagreement was over you criticizing the war.”
Vern, that is EXACTLY what I was trying to say. But I can’t get that message across to Art because he purposely ignores the message and he spins it into a different debate.
Art, I do NOT think I’m more superior than Mexicans and I have been more critical of the Vietnamese community than most people on here. The argument about Vietnam and Mexico switching is a silly stupid “what if” argument not worth talking about. You think we would suck and I think we would do better. Who knows and who cares?
As far as Sean Mill… had he said, “Jung Kim attacked me so I attacked back” or “in the heat of argument, I said things that I didn’t mean”, I would have totally understood. But he avoided it which tells me that he’s either too arrogant to admit a mistake OR he really does think rape and torture is acceptable to joke about. And when I said that it’s wrong to joke about pirates raping people to those whose friends and family may have experienced it, your boy Zero told me to get over myself. He’s a cold blooded bastard as far I’m concerned.
So stop spinning Art. You said it yourself, you can’t stop, you’re too good at it. I’d say that you do it so much, you don’t know how to stop your spins… which has become disingenuous lies.
This is your style Art. Every time there’s a discussion on here about illegal aliens, you would start with accusing people of being “Mexican hating racists”. Exactly what you’re doing to me now by saying “You are wrong about the Vietnamese being superior to Mexicans”, knowing damn well I don’t feel that way.
I have said this in the past, illegal aliens are indeed here ILLEGALLY. I cannot take issue against any American for wanting to enforce the law. They are not racist for wanting to do this. However, I’ve also said that I do not blame anyone for wanting for better life for their families. My heart goes out to the Mexicans who want to be a part of our society. AND THIS IS IMPORTANT ART, I also think that any Vietnamese American who openly and loudly criticizes illegal aliens is an azzhole and a hypocrite. I’m all for “Jail Tan Nguyen”.
So Art, do not turn the original argument with Sean into a debate about the Vietnam war. For once, I’m going to steal a line from Terry because he said it perfectly, “Art, wishing Vietnamese more years of horror and torture and millions more into subjugation “if only they hadn’t put up a fight”, is being anti-Vietnamese”
Lam,
Man you are really stretching when you have to rely on a Crowley argument.
My point is that the U.S. had no business getting involved in what amounted to a Vietnamese civil war. Most political and military experts call the Vietnam War one of the biggest blunders in U.S. history. All I am doing is agreeing with them.
Your previous comment made it clear that you think the Vietnamese are superior to Mexicans. This is not even worth debating. We all saw what you wrote.
As for immigrants who are undocumented being illegal, you need to go back and look at your own homeland’s history. Vietnamese refugees descended on a plethora of foreign countries, without permission. They had their reasons for fleeing Vietnam, but so too do the Mexicans have good reasons for leaving their homeland. Your stance is most hypocritical. And, as another commenter pointed out, Orange County Viets LOVE government benefits.
Lastly, I am not going to apologize for what Sean wrote over at the Bolsavik blog. Go back and look at what those jerks have to say about all of us. When they debate without such epithets then perhaps you can ask Sean to do the same. All he did was give them a taste of their own bitter medicine.
And yes, you do need to get over yourself. You want to put yourself forward as being better than the Jannies and the Trannies, but your previous comment made it clear where your true sentiments lie. You are just as much a racist as they are.
Oh my god, I missed #10 from “The South’s Perspective”
Got to be from Quang Pham. Quang, why did you quit man? I was upset and disappointed. I would have been happy to vote for you over Tran.
“I excerpted the history from legitimate websites and provided links to them”
Art, most written history are slanted. Whether you’re reading on the Vietnam war, US Revolutionary war, Civil War, Mexican American war or the “war on terrorism” of recent years. There’s always your view, my view and the actual truth.
LAm
“but recently, they’ve wised up and their economy has done quite well in recent years. If Vietnam had a 100 years of freedom and independence, we would do quite well.”
China, like Vietnam, has done quite well recently but according to you and many others “freedom” is not there.
Why would you approveof the actions of the Vietnamese govt with your comments aforementioned knowing full well that the freedom so many died for is not truly there?
Hypocrisy!
Just like most people, your interest in freedom applies only to your right to make money even when the poor have no opportunity.
Anyways, listen Mexicans kicked the french out, and fought to death instead of leave their homeland when it was occupied.
I ‘m not a big fan of the Mexican gov’t but I hardly believe that with the Vietnamese being unable to rule themselves that they might not be also able to do much better if situated where Mexico lies.
Yes, Art is correct. Stating that the Vietnamese could do a better job than Mexicans is racist.
Ther are no facts that support your point.
Even if you considered the status of Vietnamese Americans here in the U.S. you are probably conviently overlooking that having the status as a refugee has it’s benefits than an immigrant, much less a illegal immigrant.
I say it all economic but if we allow people to stay here we should afford all them the status of refugees and the benefits that come with that status.
“he really does think rape and torture is acceptable to joke about”
Lam Pho,
Get over yourself already you anti-Latino bigot. I did not joke about rape or torture I simply asked a question of your bigoted countrymen who were demeaning our soldiers. Their anger and unstable behavior stems from somewhere so I asked if perhaps it was the result of being “raped by pirates” or “agent orange exposure”.
Can you explain the unstable behavior? What causes such anger and hatred towards white folks, Latino’s and our soldiers that fought in Vietnam?
Talk about arrogance, your comment, “If they were switched, the Viet would have a thriving economy and wouldn’t need to invade the US”, is about as arrogant as they come.
Sure the Vietnamese community has thrived economically but that would have never come to be without the handouts provided by the American taxpayers. Latino immigrants have not had the benefits of such handouts and low interest loans.
Your belief that Vietnamese are somehow a superior race to Mexican’s tells us all we need to know about you. I could care less what vermin like you think of me. You call me a phony? At least I post using my real name. You slur Latino’s anonymously like a coward, that makes you far worse than a phony in my book.
You’re absolutely right, Art.
A wonderful book to read on several levels is “Baa Baa Blacksheep” by Maj. Greg “Pappy” Boyington, USMC, the leading ace fighter-pilot in the Pacific before he crashed in ’44 to spend the remainder of the war in Japanese pow camps. http://www.amazon.com/Black-Sheep-Gregory-Pappy-Boyington/dp/0553263501 .
Before WWII Boyington was flying as a U.S. mercenary in China with Chenault’s “Flying Tigers”. He deserted when it became apparent that the Flying Tigers were not primarily being used against Japanese, but in Chinese warlord vs warlord rivalries. Today the U.S. is manipulated by Iraqis and Afghans into the same type of internecine rivalries. A fine book describing this is “Prince of the Marshes”, by Rory Stewart, a Brit appointed to govern one of the southern Iraq provinces. http://blogcritics.org/books/article/book-review-the-prince-of-the1/ . It’s a terrible waste of American lives, lost legs, lost eyes, lost parents, lost children … .
“Why would you approveof the actions of the Vietnamese govt with your comments aforementioned knowing full well that the freedom so many died for is not truly there?”
I don’t approve of the Vietnamese government. We were talking about economics and one cannot deny the fact that Vietnam is a lot better today than it was ten years ago. They still have a long way to go in term of freedom.
“Your previous comment made it clear that you think the Vietnamese are superior to Mexicans”, “Stating that the Vietnamese could do a better job than Mexicans is racist.”
What were you expecting me to say? You guys are basically saying, “I failed, I suck, if you were in my shoes, you would fail and suck too” and my reply is “No, if I were in your shoes, I would do better”. Again, you guys are really desperate if you want to cling onto a “what if” argument that means little.
“As for immigrants who are undocumented being illegal”
That are here illegally. You should start there and say, “what can we do to solve the problem” instead of “anyone wanting to enforce the law is a racist.”
And Sean, there isn’t much I can say to you. I don’t mind Sean if you’re a dumb hot headed bully… but yeah, it’s annoying that you’re a dumb hot headed bully who pretends to be a little hurt victim.
“What causes such anger and hatred towards white folks”
There you go making things up. Vietnamese Americans actually have the highest respect for White people. Probably more respect than they have for their fellow Vietnamese if that makes any sense. It is true that some may not have the same level of respect for Hispanic, but I suspect on guys on bolsavik had hostility toward YOU personally than anything else.
Me for example Sean, do not think I’m superior than Hispanic. But I am beginning to think I’m more superior than YOU. Because you Sean are incapable of understanding the basic logic of your own argument. You can’t focus on the simple point and you jump all over the map. You’re a liar and you’re not even good at it. My god, at least come up with something that makes sense. Lie a little better to make the discussion for interesting…
“I did not joke about rape or torture I simply asked a question’
Sure Sean, the next time to visit a women shelter, during an argument with someone, say, “Why can’t you think straight, did your husband beat your ass and caused you brain damage?”. Uuuuhh… but but but I was merely asking a question… uuuh… me innocent Sean would never say anything vicious.
You’re a phony Sean. Art knows he is, and you Sean needs to accept the truth about yourself.
“And yes, you do need to get over yourself. You want to put yourself forward as being better than the Jannies and the Trannies, but your previous comment made it clear where your true sentiments lie. You are just as much a racist as they are.”
No Art, don’t act dumb like your little boy Sean. I did not say I was BETTER than the Jannies or Trannies, and I do NOT think they’re racists. I am very different from them though and yes, I do think much of what they do is hurtful and hypocritical.
In your definition though, anyone who doesn’t agree 100% with you on the Hispanic immigration issue is a racist. You are just plain wrong on this and you do more damage to the Hispanic community than anyone like me can ever do. So wake up Art, the world doesn’t hate Hispanics. They probably hate you and that phony boy though.
I think that what gets lost in the comments is the level of unimaginable self-sacrifice of our Veterans in general, and in particular the valor and sacrifices of the Medal of Honor recipients, which is truly inspiring.
I invite you all to pause and read some of the Medal of Honor citations…if you ever think you have a bad day, or someone or something pisses you off, think about what kind of day these brave individuals lived through or died from…
Please read in particular the Vietnam Veterans citations…especially as we approach the April 30 celebrations of the Vietnamese-American Community.
http://www.history.army.mil/moh.html
Francisco J. Barragan CPA, CIA
Commander, UMAVA
Commander@umava.org
(United Mexican American Veterans Association)
http://umava.org
Commander Barragan!! You have my deepest respect, thank you for your service to our country.
It’s a sincere greeting from me to someone in your position. This is NOT my way of proving anything to Art or Sean. In THEIR eye, I’m a racist and I suppose by THEIR definition, I am.
Vern, I hope that you and bigmarkod will work together to come up with an article on immigration. Something that at least we all can agree to have an intelligent discussion on, without labeling each other racists. Nothing can be resolved until the name calling stops. I guess I’m guilty of that too.
“Lie a little better to make the discussion for interesting”
Bigot boy Lam Pho,
Please cite where I have lied. You accused me of being anti-white the other day and as of yet you have failed to produce a single shred of evidence to back that statement up.
“It is true that some may not have the same level of respect for Hispanic, but I suspect on guys on bolsavik had hostility toward YOU personally than anything else.”
Unfortunately for you bigot boy the anti-white and anti-Latino comments over there showed up again and again before I ever commented there. How do you explain that?
You are a gutless coward bigot boy. You slur Latino’s while hiding anonymously. Maybe if you used your real when you posted people might give a damn what you have to say.
As usual the brilliance and effete intelligencia is working overtime…regarding an issue that none of you have lived through. The Vietnam war was all about “jobs”. Our economy was going through a contraction. Our drugged out college kids were busy taking LSD and dropping out! Does anyone even think of remembering the Korean War? Same gig! We had too many people and too few jobs. At that time our immigration policy included adding two people a year from 12 countries. We had no HI-B Visas believe us! Kennedy added our NASA Moon Program to stimulate some decent jobs for a few million young and middle aged Americans. We had no foreign sub-contractors. It was strictly a Made in USA deal. The “gatekeepers” went to Kennedy and told him he had to go to war in Vietnam to get the trashy kids, blacks, browns and druggies off the streets. We had a bountiful draft that took everyone under 26. Ron was drafted in July of 67 and got out in Europe in July of 69! US Army! We didn’t go for Robert Strange McNamara or LBJ…we went for 200 years of American History! “Yes folks…..wars are good for business and keeping people employed!” It had everything to do with race and social position. The rich kids all got married and had a kid….and didn’t have to be drafted or go to Vietnam. 80% joined the National Guard and were never activated – because they had jobs. The rest of us….the stupids, left very good jobs…but felt that we had to go to defend American Freedom! Little did we know the General Westmoreland was going to be in charge rather than General Patton!
We have an Honorable Discharge and served exactly 2 years! Graduated Specialist 4th, with a Good Conduct Medal and the American Spirit Medal. Mom and Dad were proud I got home mostly intact – except for some mind bending all European travel for a year, before I got home!
rw
As usual the brilliance and effete intelligencia is working overtime…regarding an issue that none of you have lived through. The Vietnam war was all about “jobs”.
Interesting take Ron. But nothing is ever “all about” anything.
Also thank you for your service. But your two years of service do not qualify you to understand history, or analyze it, better than anybody else on this thread.
Sean, what’s two plus two?? The answer may be obvious to most, but I’m asking you what’s two plus two is…
The answer for Sean is: Two plus two is whatever Art says it is. Even if it doesn’t make any sense, if Art says it, it’s must be true and Sean will repeat it over and over again.
Case in point, you’re making a big deal about using your real name to somehow imply you’re trustworthy. This is something Art and that idiot Dan from liberaloc like to use.
1) Look on all the major blogs, much larger than yours. Posters using monikers is part of the game. If you don’t like it, maybe on your Santa Ana blog, you should require commenters to use their real names. See what affect it will have on your traffic there. Oh wait, there’s no traffic there now so I guess the affect won’t be much.
2) Just because you use your real name doesn’t make your comments more valid than anyone else’s. Are you suggesting that you’re MORE trustworthy than your buddy Zorro and a handful of other bloggers on here? I suppose Red Vixen couldn’t be taken seriously. Is that your point Sean?
And by the way little Sean: Management at Enron and their traders used their real names. And hey, have you ever heard of Bernie Madoff? Sure Sean, using one’s real name must mean you’re honest and trustworthy, just like daddy Art Pedroza.
“Please cite where I have lied.”
Lastly Sean, when you don’t tell the whole truth, exaggerate a story, purposely hide significant factors… spin it just to make yourself look better, I’d call that a lie. Yes, you are a liar. BUT of course Sean, that is my standard. Maybe you’ve set your standard is a little lower and so that kind of behavior is perfectly fine. And so be it.
Lam. Kindly make your case without engaging in a personal attack.
You are within your rights to disagree with any of our posts. You can also use whatever handle you choose to hide your true identity if the name on your comments is not your own.
And lastly. You are a guest here. If you are a regular reader you should realize that the majority of our posts contain our “opinions” on current and recent news events. You are welcome to label it “spin” if it makes you feel good.
However, until we start charging you $24.99 per month to sign in we respectfully will not consider your desire to assist the Team in setting our policy.
Art: I have read your article «Does criticizing the Vietnam War mean you’ re anti-Vietnamese?», that u seemed honest, veracious and necessary, for me. I have just to read a book upon Vietnam bt Phillip Jennings, and it is atrocious. Your points are interesting, on the contrary.
What I think upon the barbarism in Vietnam, since remote historic times, I left it written in a one of my poems from my blogsite:
Vietnam / Libro de la guerra
Unfortunately, it is Spanish poem, but I quote from books and news that inspired me. They are in English
To seem, click here
http://carloslopezdzur-carlos.blogspot.com/2010/04/jean-baptiste-ngo-dinh-diem-buscando-el.html
Saludos,
carlos
The world let the vietnamese down, just as the world is letting down the Iranian people..
No reason to get involved with people being killed, if their is nothing in it for us..
Millions of Men/women and children were murdered in the killing field’s of vietnam because a generation of hippies did not want to be involved… The same assholes that will not help the Iranian people to be free from the murderous clerics!
Larry, by the way can you not be two faced about the personal attack thing… Sean is the king of personal attacks. lam is only giving what he is getting, which seems quite fair to me!
Art, you want us to feed, clothe and take care of third world latin people.. But as far as getting involved with saving other lives – WE HAVE NO BUSINESS!
Well, I agree with – Mexico feed you’re own bloody people, we need to take care of our own!
Bloody joke really!
great work on this article. I can assure you that not all Vietnamese bash latinos. I am vietnamese american and I certainly am not like this. The people you list who do bash latinos are republicans. I can assure you that vietnamese americans are leaning towards the democrats more and more.
Older Viets are sticking to the GOP because the believe the GOP is anti communist when there is really no more communism to fight. Numbers show that the viet community is slowly turning democratic and thats a great sign.
“Older Viets are sticking to the GOP because the believe the GOP is anti communist when there is really no more communism to fight.”
Ok – NO MORE COMMUNISM TO FIGHT?? Tell that to the North Korean people!
The viet’s are turning towards the democrats- I thought Asians were honorable people.. I am sad to hear that.. I suppose it is a lot easier to take from you’re neighbor than it is to work for it!
God, this country is in a lot of trouble!
Michelle your grammar is horrible. You must be one of the tea party activists.
A lot of the responses on this topic are absurd. Making generalizations about people being bigots, racsists, or even belonging to a certain political party simply becuase they disagree with your opinion. There are obviously many different “opinions” about the Viet Nam war. The facts are the facts, but everyone will interpret them differently so to attack someone for their belief is unfair. Was the U.S. involvement necessary? It all depends on your personal point of view. However, FACT is that Communism is the deadliest form of government in the history of civilization, so I do personally find it absurd to refer to the North Vietnamese Communists as freedom fighters.
and yes, capitalism is so great. There’s no greed, and nobody has died because of it.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Me. Very eloquent point. I can’t wait to see more of your thought provoking comments.
Next time you might consider using cap’s
Lam, i think you should stop wasting your time arguing with these people…i read most of arts and seans comments and its completely incoherent. Just because they have good diction and grammar doesnt mean they are any smarter then little kids to me.
Ho chi minh murdered his own citizens and was a coward, my own family has many members who were murdered and robbed by the viet cong, so yes, calling ho chi minh a freedom fighter is absolutely apalling and anti-vietnamese…and its honestly anti-human to consider the atrocities of the viet cong to be anything acceptable. If youd like to know more about these atrocities, talk to those who have lost love ones, i even know people who fought for viet cong and got betrayed by them and forced them to flee their own country. Art dont take the word of websites, you swear like nobody can lie online. To not see the the evils and attrocities of the viet cong and ho chi minh is to completely blind, its like denying that the holocaust happened.
Im not here to argue with you guys, i only gave my input because i felt like when lam was talking to art and sean it was like an adult trying to explain a complex situation to a bunch of 5 year olds.