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New OJ rock star Francisco Barragan. Videos of Francisco interviewing Hunt supporter are posted at the end of this article.
Your friendly OJ bloggers Art, Francisco and Vern swung by the final Hunt-Arpaio event this weekend – Saturday morning’s rally-fundraiser at Costa Mesa’s Sutra restaurant. The usual 20-30 protesters were doing their thing outside and Art joined them; Francisco and I got into Sutra wearing our snazzy new Orange Juice press passes. The event inside was much smaller than I expected – maybe seventy mostly older Republicans, none whom I recognized (none of the local nativist celebrities I envisioned in my epic poem.) Apparently Hunt organizer and ex-OJ’er Tim Whitacre was there but I wouldn’t recognize him. The most notable public figure present besides Arpaio and Hunt was San Bernardino Assembly candidate and “founder of the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps” Tim Donnelly.
A few brief, telling observations
- Amusingly, given the over-the-top, nonstop crowing about “patriotism” and “country,” the organizers originally placed the American flag incorrectly on the right side of the stage, and it took our own Francisco – a Marine veteran who takes such matters very seriously – to come up right before the event started and demand that they put it on the correct, left side, and then help them arrange it correctly. Added to the irony, Francisco, who immigrated (legally) from Mexico at age nine, was the only person there who wasn’t lily-white (your quarter-Mexican correspondent included.) His ethnicity combined with his military bling and sharp suit really disconcerted the assemblage.
- You may be hearing this disturbing new “improvement” to the Pledge of Allegiance (brought to you by probably the same people who were so outraged at the idea of returning the Pledge to its original version without “under God.”) – Several female voices emphatically added an extra word at the very end: “…with liberty and justice for all CITIZENS!” I think I understand what they’re advocating: No LIBERTY for other American residents documented or not, and no JUSTICE either.
- I noticed a funny little detail that seemed a bit wrong for a Sheriff race that is supposed to be non-partisan: several attendees were introduced as candidates for “the Central Committee.” No mention of what Party, it was just assumed there’d be no Democrats or other non-Republicans there. I leaned over to Bill Hunt (yeah, he was sitting right next to me the whole time actually) and whispered, “REPUBLICAN Central Committee?” He glanced at me like it was a strange question: “Of course!”
- A rousing campaign video (apparently not yet online) presented Hunt’s campaign and career since 2006 as a bold grassroots insurgent movement against a corrupt establishment… but it was nearly drowned out by the oddest musical soundtrack: stern D-minor, pounding drums, roaring wordless choir, nearly a dead-ringer for the Carmina Burana chorus used in practically every horror movie since The Omen. I had to nudge Bill, “Why did you use such scary music?” Again he looked nonplussed: “This sounds scary to you?” And I reminded myself that not all people are sensitive to music. (My guess, in fact I’m pretty sure I remember that soundtrack – it’s been used in some recent angry teabagger overthrow-the-government videos, so it struck Bill’s people as politically correct, but it really doesn’t capture the optimistic-uplift message they seemed to be striving for.)
- Bill, Joe, and the crowd loved joking around about all the protesters who follow Joe around everywhere – he calls them his “Joe-testers,” and wonders if they’re the same people following him to every state since they all look and behave alike. He obviously loves any attention he gets, positive or negative, boasts of being a “publicity hound,” and bitched about there being no TV cameras at this particular event. Make of that what you will, protester friends.
Issues besides immigration that Bill talked about
Although inviting Joe Arpaio to do a fundraiser for you, not to mention embracing Minuteman leader Barabara Coe, are by definition statements about immigration policy and race, Mr. Hunt spent most of his short speech talking about other issues. Some of those:
Most of his ideas have to do with “tougher” law enforcement combined with allegedly saving the public money. He is against the current “cite and release” policy for non-violent criminals, and against “kicking crooks loose.” He would instead “BOOK ‘EM ALL,” and not let them out till they post bail, so that the bondsman will be responsible for them. He says Sheriff Hutchens’ early releases have tragically opened up 2000 extra beds, which she plans to rent to the Feds – where they will allegedly place “illegals.” (At first blush that sounds like a good deal for the county.) He later told Francisco and me that he wants to convert the mess halls in the OC jails to house more inmates.
I’m not prepared to say right now if he is characterizing current policy fairly or not, or whether his solutions make any sense. It sounds like just more law-and-order lock-up-more-Americans talk, which makes me wonder why “Libertarians” like our Fullerton Fringer friends want him in charge. These are your drug-offender pals he’s talking about, Tony and Travis. Also pretty hard to see how this would save taxpayer money by any stretch.
But not to worry, he proposes to save a tiny bit thusly: He wants the public defender – who currently represents 90% of those arrested here – to ONLY be available to the “truly indigent.” And he wants the county to bill inmates for their health care. If you want, you can read more of his ideas on his website.
Bill and his supporters present him mainly as a revolutionary challenge to OC’s corrupt “machine” or “establishment.” The ghost of disgraced, convicted, former Sheriff Mike Carona (Bill’s superior against whom he bravely ran in 2006 for which he was later punished) was invoked so regularly, you would have thought he was still Bill’s opponent. There seemed to be a conscious policy of not uttering the name of his actual opponent, Sheriff Hutchens, who was instead snidely referred to as “the appointed sheriff.” (Bill made a strange comment at one point, that “One thing Sheriff Arpaio and I agree on is that Sheriffs should be elected, not appointed.” I didn’t realize that proposition was a matter of controversy. Wasn’t Hutchens’ 2008 appointment a one-time fluke resulting from Carona’s conviction?)
Finally as a segue into the main act, Bill listed “two things he admires about Arizona.” This was, first, no surprise, the new conceal and carry law – Hunt is the toast of every second-amendment absolutist (some of whom overlook his racial dog-whistles.) And second, more disappointingly, the controversial new SB 1070 – CHEERS FROM THE CROWD! – which practically requires Arizona police, under penalty of lawsuit, to check the documents of anyone who LOOKS like they might be an undocumented immigrant. So Sheriff Hunt comes down in favor of that. I’ll be saying plenty about the bill in the future, but two quick thoughts here:
What sort of sheriff would embrace a measure that would tie the hands of law enforcement so severely, both by taking away time and resources from pursuing serious crimes, and making undocumented witnesses afraid to come forward?
And if you want to say that extreme measures may be called for out in Arizona which is currently in the crossfire of a vicious border drug war, what the hell do we need anything like that for in Orange County? I think at the very least this calls into question the priorities of the man who wants to be our sheriff (as thought we didn’t know what he was trying to communicate by embracing Arpaio and Coe.)
Well, later Francisco managed to speak with Mr. Hunt for several minutes, and got a promise from Bill to respond to any e-mail questions, so since we have that to look forward to, I’ll take a break here. Look for the second half of MY two-part series in a day or two: JOE ARPAIO DRUNK! Along with musings on immigration policy, “racism” whatever that is, prison privatization which may be the real elephant in the room, and a CALL TO HISPANICS TO DEFEND THEMSELVES BY FINALLY COMING OUT TO VOTE, TONTOS!
[read Pt. 2: “¡Arpaio Borracho!“]
Now, as promised, two videos of Francisco debating a Hunt supporter. Apologies for all the chatter nearly drowning them out, and the herky-jerky cell-phone video quality. I may add a transcript later. Thanks to Chris Xitco for the video. Francisco starts talking around 3:00…
PART TWO:
[Right before this starts, the Hunt supporter asks Vern – who’s off-camera – if he supports “open borders.” Vern says “No! I support immigration reform!” And the Huntista says “Then we agree…” and the video starts…]
I too was present at the event and noticed that “addition” to the Pledge. I agree it is wrong and offensive – the Constitution protects all persons within the United States (except, one would presume, invaders in time of war). While the authors of this article and I would probably part company on the issue of illegal immigration (note, I said illegal immigration), I agree 100% that even persons in this country illegally do in fact enjoy and deserve all the protections of the Constitution.
It’s clear that Francisco was the only one in that “debate” with any class.
“I agree 100% that even persons in this country illegally do in fact enjoy and deserve all the protections of the Constitution.”
MQ says:
Oh please give me a break…
Though I am sure it pain’s you – the majority of the people who are paying the ridiculous taxes are lilly white.. so yeah they are the one’s who might be the majority at the tea parties… but I have seen many races at the tea parties all wanting the same thing – the government to get off their backs!
I am very glad Mr.F was able to show his fellow Americans the proper procedure to present the flag.. not all are in the military…
You talk about illegal immigrants being a net profit – to who Mr.F.?? Corps, church’s, Non-profits??
I would ask one question of you Mr. F…
Does the American people have a right to have a say in whether they want illegal immigrants to become citizens … when already they are taxed to death to aid the children of illegal immigrants.. Poor people do not pay taxes Mr.F … the poor though are able to qualify for federal aid!
If the answer is yes… Then the AZ people should not be harassed for wanting what they feel will make their state a better place…I think the bill makes total sense for a state that is so over run by illegal immigrants from south of the border that their hospitals close and schools are over crowded..
Activist’s like yourself make this a race matter – race is not the reason illegal immigrants are causing so many problems – its because they feel entitled to be here and use and abuse the system… they have no right to be here and neither did I until I became a legal citizen!
Just my opinion and I am sure the opinion of many!
Hey Francisco, and Vern good reporting…. kind of, I think you missed a few good points, and avoided others, but on the whole I would say you gave it a “c” for the attempt at being “fair and balanced”.
You Write, “Most of his ideas have to do with “tougher” law enforcement combined with allegedly saving the public money. He is against the current “cite and release” policy for non-violent criminals, and against “kicking crooks loose.”
(You didn’t refer to the 140,000 or so open warrants in the county, with 32,000 of them being felonies)
He would instead “BOOK ‘EM ALL,” and not let them out till they post bail, so that the bondsman will be responsible for them.
(The quote was “Pay your Bail or stay in jail, and HE WENT TO EXPLAIN, IF YOU CITE AND RELEASE THERE IS NO INCENTIVE FOR THEM TO COME TO COURT, WITH BAIL, THE BONDSMAN IS ON THE HOOK FOR THE MONEY)
He says Sheriff Hutchens’ early releases have tragically opened up 2000 extra beds, which she plans to rent to the Feds – where they will allegedly place “illegals.” (At first blush that sounds like a good deal for the county
( I DONT THINK HE SAID EARLY RELEASE CAUSED THE 2000 BED TO BE OPEN, I THINK SHE HAS EARLY RELEASED ABOUT 500 PEOPLE SO FAR. The beds are empty from the old policy of cite and release, and that renting them out would be a waste of the Multi Million dollar facility WE PAID FOR! So to release prisoners early due to “Overcrowding” while you are renting out these same beds, does not seem to make a lot of sense….at least to me)
He later told Francisco and me that he wants to convert the mess halls in the OC jails to house more inmates.”
(Wasn’t there for that, but he did say he wants to feed them in their cells, to avoid the costs and dangers of Moving inmates into the chowhall two or three times per day, it is safer, and less costly to feed them in their cells.
You glosses over the billing inmates for their helathcare, if they have coverage (insurance) and why not? You also glossed over the 90% referral rate to the public defender, I don’t know what the number is in outher counties, but that seems really high.
Like I said, knowing where you come from (Politically) I would give you a solid “c”. Looking forward to part two.
P.S. I am looking forward to getting together with Francisco to solve the immigration issue and create a soild policy for the county!
P.P.S. It sucks when you can’t talk to people or debate because people around you are screaming… hate that.
did you get a shot of them today in az .tossing bottles at people they dont agree with . yelling f. u racist all the same old things they yell . no one seemed over 25 out there. i love it keep it up hispanic activist the more the people see of this . the better for us . of course this was just a bleep on the news . if these where a tea party members that tossed those bottles .. BREAKING NEWS, LEAD STORY ,FRONT PAGE . INSTEAD -zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Yeah, I did get called, a “skinhead, racist, Nazi F@@k! And was told to watch out you white MotherF-er… Like I say, Stay Classy La Raza
Vern Nelson writes:
[Extra text deleted]
> Most of his ideas have to do with “tougher”
> law enforcement combined with allegedly
> saving the public money. He is against
> the current “cite and release” policy
> for non-violent criminals, and against
> “kicking crooks loose.” He would instead
> “BOOK ‘EM ALL,” and not let them out
> till they post bail, so that the bondsman
> will be responsible for them.
I’m not exactly certain how Bill Hunt is going to save the taxpayers any money since he’s proposing to implement a policy that would eventually cause the massive overcrowding of the Orange County jail system.
Boy, do I feel safe at night knowing this clown is going to “get tough” by stuffing the jails full of “non-violent criminals” who allegedly committed offenses ranging from stealing a candy bar to puffing marijuana.
What is truly pathetic, however, is this is a two-tiered system of “justice” based on class and race: poorer offenders, mostly working-class Mexicans, who can’t afford to post bail would rot in jail until their trial.
I’m sure Hunt’s white nationalist supporters won’t mind that he’s loading up the jails with brown skinned folks. That’s why they are swirling around his candidacy much like happy flies are attracted to a freshly laid pile of dog crap.
The reality is, Superior Court Judges — and not Hunt — are the ones who decide if somebody should be held in jail. It is true he can eliminate the “cite and release” policy, but we fortunately still have the right of habeas corpus.
[Extra text deleted]
> But not to worry, he proposes to save a tiny
> bit thusly: He wants the public defender –
> who currently represents 90% of those arrested
> here – to ONLY be available to the “truly
> indigent.”
As far as I know, Hunt doesn’t have any legal authority to tell the Orange County Public Defender’s office which inmates they are going to represent in a court of law. What is he going to do? Deny them access to alleged offenders?
If he’s that dumb, there would be dozens of civil rights lawsuits filed in state and federal court against the Sheriff’s Department for denial of due process. In fact, it would result in criminal cases getting dismissed.
> And he wants the county to bill inmates for
> their health care.
Cool. So when families start filing wrongful death lawsuits against the Sheriff’s Department for denying health care to loved ones who died in jail because they couldn’t pay, will Hunt dig into his own pockets to pay for legal expenses?
Oh, I’m sorry. Hunt’s learned from his Arizona mentor, Bozo Joe, that taxpayers are supposed to pick up the tab! How naive am I to think public officials — especially “tough” lawmen — should be held accountable for their actions!
Sincerely,
Duane J. Roberts
B.A. Degree in Criminology, Law, and Society
University of California, Irvine
1997
See Duane, you are part of the problem, you go off the deep end without the facts and information, and make it all fit your “he is a racist, hates mexican etc…” you sound like a fool when you dont listen
You said “Cool. So when families start filing wrongful death lawsuits against the Sheriff’s Department for denying health care to loved ones who died in jail because they couldn’t pay, will Hunt dig into his own pockets to pay for legal expenses?” What he said was it is leagal, and right for the county to bill thos inmates who have insurance for their healthcare, so if you have Blue cross, and you are in jail and have an…… ear infection, you insurance will be billed for the care and medicine, how is that racist? If you don’t have insurance, you still get care.
What? Did you feel like just making stuff up here “Boy, do I feel safe at night knowing this clown is going to “get tough” by stuffing the jails full of “non-violent criminals” who allegedly committed offenses ranging from stealing a candy bar to puffing marijuana” Funny thing is, you are such a closed minded bigot, that you can’t even see he is the most…for lack of a better term “pro marijauna freedom”.
Why does it have to be Racist, or two tiered? “What is truly pathetic, however, is this is a two-tiered system of “justice” based on class and race: poorer offenders, mostly working-class Mexicans, who can’t afford to post bail would rot in jail until their trial.” Because our current system has worked so Well!!!I’m sure it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE 140,000 OUTSTANDING WARRANTS 30,000 OF WHICH ARE FELONS, that have not bothered to show up to court…. Probably just too busy at their working class jobs to go….
Try to step away from the closed minded bigotry, it’s ugly.
Bigmarkod says:
> See Duane, you are part of the problem,
> you go off the deep end without the
> facts and information, and make it all
> fit your “he is a racist, hates mexican
> etc…” you sound like a fool when you
> dont listen
If you carefully look at what I said in the message I posted in response to Vern’s report, I never at any point wrote that Bill Hunt “is a racist, hates mexican [sic], etc….”
I won’t deny saying that it is my humble opinion that I think some of his proposals will have disproportionate impacts on various categories of offenders based on race and class.
But it is quite true Hunt has embraced white nationalists with open arms. Some of the photos taken at fundraisers show him mingling with famous bigots — Barbara Coe, for example.
> What he said was it is leagal, and
> right for the county to bill thos
> inmates who have insurance for
> their healthcare, so if you have
> Blue cross, and you are in jail and
> have an…… ear infection, you insurance
> will be billed for the care and
> medicine, how is that racist? If
> you don’t have insurance, you still
> get care.
I appreciate you clarifying his position for me because campaign literature I received from the Orange County Deputy Sheriff’s Association states that Hunt “will also charge inmates for medical treatments”.
I was curious as to how he would do that since I don’t think he has the legal authority under California state law to charge inmates for health care. I don’t think Medicare and Medi-Cal cover persons who are incarcerated.
As for billing private health insurance companies, don’t get your hopes up too high. An overwhelming majority of people arrested by the Sheriff’s Department probably work at jobs that don’t offer them any coverage.
> What? Did you feel like just making
> stuff up here “Boy, do I feel safe
> at night knowing this clown is going
> to “get tough” by stuffing the jails
> full of “non-violent criminals” who
> allegedly committed offenses ranging
> from stealing a candy bar to puffing
> marijuana” Funny thing is, you are
> such a closed minded bigot, that
> you can’t even see he is the most…
> for lack of a better term “pro
> marijauna freedom”.
I am well aware of Hunt’s position on marijuana. So are you telling me that he won’t enforce the laws on the books if it is still illegal after November? That he’ll enforce some laws, but not others?
I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. The decision to arrest someone on a misdemeanor is sometimes a very discretionary act. It depends on the judgement of the officer, the circumstances involved, and other factors.
But Hunt says on his website:
I will end the long standing practice
of citing and releasing for misdemeanor
crimes. I will book all misdemeanor
arrests and require criminals to bear
the cost for their release by posting
bail NOT by citation or through
release on their own recogniznce [sic]
with nothing more than a promise to
appear.
http://www.billhuntforsheriff2010.com/issues
The only thing I can assume by the above statement is that Hunt’s gonna get “tough” on “all misdemeanor” arrestees — including petty offenders — by ending the policy of “cite and release” to keep them in jail.
> Why does it have to be Racist, or two
> tiered?
I’m just saying that’s the inevitable byproduct of such a policy whether Hunt understands this consciously or not. The people who can’t afford to post bail for misdemeanor offenses will most likely be working-class Mexicans.
The reality is, we’ve always had a two-tiered system of “justice”. It’s just that under Hunt, it will be more explicitly obvious. But as I wrote earlier, Superior Court Judges decide whether someone is to remain in jail.
> “What is truly pathetic, however,
> is this is a two-tiered system of
> “justice” based on class and race:
> poorer offenders, mostly working-class
> Mexicans, who can’t afford to post bail
> would rot in jail until their trial.”
> Because our current system has worked so
> Well!!!I’m sure it has NOTHING TO DO
> WITH THE 140,000 OUTSTANDING WARRANTS
> 30,000 OF WHICH ARE FELONS, that
> have not bothered to show up to
> court…. Probably just too busy at their
> working class jobs to go….
And wouldn’t it make more sense for the Sheriff’s Department to spend its limited resources trying to apprehend some of those persons who have outstanding felony warrants for allegedly committing violent criminal acts against others?
A majority of people arrested each day are cited for mostly for non-violent, petty crimes. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see Hunt’s proposal to “book all misdemeanor arrests” would result in massive jail overcrowding.
And does it make sense to keep hundreds of people locked up for “non-violent offenses” when limited jail space would probably be better used to hold people whom the evidence suggests committed violent criminal acts like rape, robbery, and attempted murder?
Sincerely,
Duane J. Roberts
B.A. Degree in Criminology, Law, and Society
University of California, Irvine
1997
> Try to step away from the closed minded
> bigotry, it’s ugly.
Bigmarkod,
“You glosses over the billing inmates for their helathcare, if they have coverage (insurance) and why not?”
A. Even if they would still qualify for their employers plan and even if they could afford it, do you really think prisoners (or their spouses) would continue to pay their premiums while incarcerated?
B. Who will accompany prisoners to their “approved” health care providers?
C. How many claims adjusters will the Sheriff’s department need to hire in order to process the prisoners claims?
What a joke.
Much better, Now we are talking
I think I would rather run people through the system, and get the bondsman on the hook rather than chase warrants. I also think you are underestimating the number of middle class folks arrested, who do have insurance, and can post bail. But I don’t know if we could find hard numbers on that stuff. I am not for the “Overicarceration” in this county, (Or anywhere)and I do think 30 or 40K is way too much to spend on kids swiping candy bars, but by the time you are “doing” 30 days, you are on your 3rd DUI, or have a weapons charge, burglary, etc…
I think we can disagree on the specifics, I;m sure if we had hard numbers we could make better sense of the numbers. I don’t think he is playing to the “White Nationalists” (Not exactly sure what that is) but many of the people who are his biggest supporters are from the Libertarian Wing of the Republican Party (Like Me) who are not the “white nationalist”, nor are they in the “Lock them all up! Law and order” group”
Hey anonster,
Try not to sound like a total fool
A. Even if they would still qualify for their employers plan and even if they could afford it, do you really think prisoners (or their spouses) would continue to pay their premiums while incarcerated?
If you are a middle class white guy, and are doing 30 days for a dui, are you going to lose your coverage? No
If you are covered by your wife’s insurance, do you lose your coverage? no.
If you are 20 and covered by your parents, do you lose your coverage? No.
B. Who will accompany prisoners to their “approved” health care providers?
Approved? In Jail the one guy there is your “approved” provider. Just like if you get in a wreck, the bring you to your closes hospital.
C. How many claims adjusters will the Sheriff’s department need to hire in order to process the prisoners claims? So you would rather just do all of the work, and the paperwork, and provide the treatments, and the care…. but you can’t drop a copy in the mail to the insurance company?
Seriously, that wouldn’t pay for itself?
Plus now with your OBAMA CARE Won’t everybody have insurance? and they have to have it! Sweet
Awesome article . I would also like to mention that we are not “hispanic” . Hipanics are the people , property and things of Spain .
Michelle Q:
You state,
“I am very glad Mr.F was able to show his fellow Americans the proper procedure to present the flag.. not all are in the military…”
My Response:
1) Lt. Bill Hunt; and Dave Smith, self-described constitutional attorney who introduced Lt. Hunt are both former military. I think this was an honest mistake which was fixed after I pointed it out.
2) But more importantly, although they are entitled to free speech, it is offensive by participants to change the Pledge of Allegiance unless authorized to do so. By changing the Pledge FROM “liberty and justice for ALL” TO “liberty and justice for CITIZENS” not only are they stating their NARROW and UNCONSTITUTIONAL views, they have in effect NOT pledged allegiance to the Flag of the United States because this is not a VALID pledge.
Michelle Q. you state,
“You talk about illegal immigrants being a net profit – to who Mr.F.?? Corps, church’s, Non-profits?? I would ask one question of you Mr. F…
Does the American people have a right to have a say in whether they want illegal immigrants to become citizens … when already they are taxed to death to aid the children of illegal immigrants.. Poor people do not pay taxes Mr.F … the poor though are able to qualify for federal aid!”
My Response,
1) Taxes get withheld from illegal aliens…they have NO choice in the matter.
2) Many illegal aliens pay their taxes through the TIN (Taxpayer Identification Number) that the IRS issues irregardless of legal status, so that they can pay their taxes.
3) Illegal aliens understand that if there ever were to be any kind of “amnesty”/comprehensive immigration reform, that they have to demonstrate not only that they have lived and worked here, but that they have also PAID their TAXES.
4) Through comprehensive immigration reform we will also be able to better track and collect taxes withheld by “crooked employers” from the illegal alien workers, but that are NOT being turned in.
5) But MOST IMPORTANTLY legal and illegal immigrants PAY MORE IN TAXES THAN THEY RECEIVE in services. From CBO (Congressional Budget Office) December 2007, Introduction:
“Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax [REVENUES] of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized [Illegals]—[EXCEED THE COSTS] of the services… Generally, such estimates include revenues and spending at the [FEDERAL,STATE, and LOCAL LEVELS]…However, many estimates also show that the cost of providing public services to unauthorized immigrants at the state and local levels exceeds what that population pays in state and local taxes…most unauthorized immigrants are [PROHIBITED] from receiving many of the benefits that the federal government provides through Social Security and such need-based programs as Food Stamps, Medicaid (other than emergency services), and Temporary Assistance for Needy Families.”
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf
6) I share with you a link to Office of Inspector General Report (OIG) from Social Security Agency from Social Security Agency page 40:
It shows about $421 Billion in wages (for long period of time) that are unmatched from SS# to Name…most likely because illegals provided a non-existent number, used an erroneous number or used a valid number but with a different name.
(ESF) – Earning Suspense File:
“Between 1937 and 2001, the ESF grew to represent about $421 billion in wages, which included approximately 244 million wage items with an invalid name and SSN combination. As of October 2003, SSA had posted 9.6 million wage items to the ESF for Tax Year (TY) 2001,
representing about $56 billion in wages.”
http://www.ssa.gov/oig/ADOBEPDF/sar102003032004.pdf
Francisco J. Barragan (my Opinions only and not those of any group)
Michelle Q you state,
“…the AZ people should not be harassed for wanting what they feel will make their state a better place…Activist’s like yourself make this a race matter – race is not the reason illegal immigrants are causing so many problems – its because they feel entitled to be here and use and abuse the system… they have no right to be here and neither did I until I became a legal citizen!”
My Response,
Michelle, your race-baiting, and your mischaracterization of my comments as a race issue demonstrates an INSINCERE desire to debate issues and the solution in an honest and transparent manner.
This law by Arizona raises several issues:
1) CONSTITUTIONAL – FEDERAL vs STATES rights. Immigration law is the domain of the Federal government. AZ is overstepping this boundary.
2) CONSTITUTIONAL – potential for UNEQUAL application of the law and abuse. “Reasonable suspicion” has not been defined. Cops already have the right to stop based on “Probable Cause”. None of us have a problem with that. But with this AZ law,
a) If it is NOT based on color of your eyes or on the color of the skin;
b) If it is NOT based on the spelling of your first and last name;
c) If it is NOT based on the pronunciation of your last name; or
d) If it is NOT based on whether you speak with an accent, or possibly a lisp…
How and what is this based on? If it is not based on items a-d, then on what is it based on?
They passed this law, but this has not been made clear.
I don’t necessarily have a problem if there is requirement that ALL US citizens and Legal residents also be required to carry a National ID, while others may have an issue on Constitutional grounds, but I do have a problem as to how we would “enforce” or apply this. None of us have seen an indication that guarantees that it will be applied equally.
3) CONSTITUTIONAL – just because the MAJORITY passes a law does NOT mean that the law is constitutional or just.
Our system is supposed to ensure both equal protection under the law and the right of any MINORITY group. Unfortunately, most of the “stains” in the fabric of our Nation were when we passed laws or enforced laws that violated the rights of the minority, and were unjust per se. For example:
3A) think of SLAVERY;
3B) think of women DENIED THE RIGHT TO VOTE;
3C) think of African-Americans disenfranchised through “Jim Crow” laws, and the oppression and brutality that they suffered for over 100 years after the end of the Civil War;
3D) think of the “deportation” of approximately 2 million US born American citizens of Hispanic/Mexican descent during the “Decade of Betrayal” of the 1930’s and up into the 40’s.
3E) think of the prohibition against interracial marriage;
3F) think of the UNEQUAL EDUCATION of our children, until revoked both by “Mendez vs Westminster School District of Orange County” in California in 1946; and nationally by “Brown vs Topeka Board of Education in 1954 using the legal arguments of the Mendez case.
All of these injustices were sustained under the “color of law”.
4) Pursuit of failed policies that make CITIZENS and RESIDENTS LESS SAFE, because it distracts from fighting violent offenders. Sheriff Arpaio’s county has seen an increase of crime of about 70% while he is distracted with his immigration sweeps.
http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/Common/Img/Mission%20Unaccomplished.pdf
5) Pursuit of failed policies that are more COSTLY.
5a) For example, Sheriff Arpaio’s budget has quadrupled to $270 million in pursuit of a failed policy with his priorities inverted. Rather than going after the Violent felons/offenders, he is pursuing a group the majority of whom are NOT violent offenders.
5b) Also Nationally Enforcement, (CONCENTRATED AT THE BORDER STATES), and COSTS have gone up about 8 times to deport about 350-400,000 annually out of 12 million and which has not worked and will not work.
6) Pursuit of failed policies that criminalize for non-violent offenses, and against people that are actually contributing to the well-being of our nation and of the state of AZ.
7) Pursuit of failed policies that have the potential for DIVIDING FAMILIES.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/14/citizen.children/index.html
#8) AZ Law is also opposite to our American Values and principles. Think about our American values… “Life…Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”. And the immigrant parent(s) who risked their lives to feed their children/their family…they did this for “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”…Most all of them come to the US to work, and which ends up having a benefit to our country, all things considered.
Do these immigrants’ values mirror those of America’s values…hard work, staying out of trouble, and contributing? The evidence demonstrates a resounding Yes.
Arizona’s new law is a failed law, and yet supporters would deny those facts.
Francisco “Paco” Barragan (my opinions only and not those of any group)
Michelle Q is a nut case. If she’s even real haha
Bill Hunt is a sham. He has NO chance of winning UNLESS
he uses an immigration platform.
Mr. Francisco Barragan define the true “AMERICAN(O) DREAM” statement…..that we all of Immigrant decent strive for…….thanks Mr. Francisco “Paco” Barragan for re-educating and bringing to light dignity and true HISTORY…without any BIAS………….
) “But MOST IMPORTANTLY legal and illegal immigrants PAY MORE IN TAXES THAN THEY RECEIVE in services. From CBO (Congressional Budget Office) December 2007, Introduction:”
MQ says:
Most ilegal immigrants are living below the poverty line.. They would get back money – not pay it!..”They do the jobs American will not do”.. That is because they are doing job’s that used to be done by teenagers ect.. low wage jobs!
I heard ICE raided a business and arrested three hundred illegal immigrants – all three hundred jobs were filled by Legal/Citizens..
What you are stating is plainly not true..California has 30% of welfare recipients – Again the poor do not pay enough taxes to make it a + ..
Not only are we in the hole because of public employees and unions.. California is in the hole because of its entitlements to illegal immigrants..
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime_summary.html
I wish i had more time to debate you on the matter.. All I have to say is that American citizen’s are being murdered, raped and abused by having to pay for another nation’s people… The word is American in, “American Dream”.
70% of Americans (AZ) feel they are losing the American dream of being in one of the most safest and thriving nations in the world.. They are not racist, they are afraid!
I would not blame them – they can not even tend their own ranch without the potential of meeting a smuggler..
Race is not an issue-Watching you’re state become a drug infested, people smuggling ring is what has made AZ citizen’s fearful – Not all people coming over the border want a job!
You seem like a nice man Mr. F.. But you are very bias when it comes to defending illegal immigrants over you’re own citizens…
That fact is that Illegal is termed Illegal for a reason!
And the people of this country want the law enforced for reason – to stop the wave of illegal immigrants which is causing all sorts of problems in their communities..
I think 60% of the nation agree with me and 70% of Az Citizens agree with me too!
But of course that does not matter – Right?
http://redblueamerica.com/truthornot/2008-04-03/do-illegal-immigrants-receive-more
There are all sorts of links and articles that will give you direct opinions about illegal immigrants..
I just know that illegal immigration is causing a hugh problem here in Orange County – Corruption, crime and welfare use, under age pregnancies, low preforming schools ect..
I only state the truth and the truth is evident all around us!
I respect your opinion, I JUST disagree with it based on what i have seen and what i have researched!
Have a lovely day Mr.F
🙂
By the way – Jerry yes i am a nut case and yes I am very real!
I am not a 50 year old white man – if i am I need to start taking some serious male hormones!
Michelle Q:
1) Is illegal immigration a problem? YES.
2) Should we follow the same failed policies of the past? NO.
3) Unfortunately millions of Americans are grossly misinformed by FALSE information linking undocumented immigrants to crime, disease, and terrorism. These manufactured myths, manufactured primarily by racists individuals or groups, have the effect of creating fear and anger towards those perceived to be undocumented, and runs the risk of promoting hatred and VIOLENCE against these same undocumented individuals, and US citizens and legal residents.
A big source of this misinformation is described in this link:
“John Tanton is the racist architect of the modern anti-immigrant movement. He created a network of organizations – the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) and NumbersUSA”
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/john-tanton
and see:
http://www.splcenter.org/search/apachesolr_search/FAIR
and see:
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/
4) Are there violent crimes committed by illegal aliens?
YES, just as there are within the population at large.
That is why we have to be smart about how we PRIORITIZE and DEPLOY our LIMITED law enforcement resources, to ensure we go after Violent offenders, legal or illegal, AND DEPORT THE VIOLENT Illegals, because those are not contributing to the well-being of our nation in comparison to the majority who are.
6) To also put the “threat” in perspective close to half of the illegal immigrants first came in LEGALLY, through an airport or border crossing, and were subject to inspection by immigration officers, and then Overstayed their Visas.
http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=61
Illegal immigration is already a complex issue, there is no need to “muddy” the waters, because of personal opinions. We have to have a sound understanding about the cause and effect to address this properly.
I have also suggested earlier some of the stronger measures we need to take to protect ourselves, and significantly reduce FUTURE illegal immigration.
Francisco “Paco” Barragan (my opinions only and not those of any group)
Michelle Q:
A careful reading of the link you provided at #19 above, also demonstrates what I say and contradicts what you say.
At your link select: “Do illegal immigrants receive more government benefits than they pay in taxes?”
http://redblueamerica.com/truthornot/2008-04-03/do-illegal-immigrants-receive-more-government-benefits-they-pay-taxes-2300
While the sources I provided, and the one you directed us to, indicate that some states carry a heavier burden, overall the net Fed, State and County level impacts are NET positive impacts.
“And in a 2007 report, the White House Council of Economic Advisers asserted that, over the long haul, immigrants end up paying off:
The long-run impact of immigration on public budgets is likely to be positive. Projections of future taxes and government spending are subject to uncertainty, but a careful study published by the National Research Council estimated that immigrants and their descendants would [CONTRIBUTE ABOUT $80,000 MORE IN TAXES] (in 1996 dollars) than they would receive in public services.
The analysis found that over the next decade, newly legalized immigrants and guest workers would generate $48 billion in additional tax and Social Security revenues, while using about $23 billion worth of tax credits and social services. Thus, the newly legal immigrant population [WOULD CONTRIBUTE A NET] of about $26 [BILLION OVER THE DECADE], the report said.
If the question you are asking is do illegal immigrants pay taxes- the answer would be yes.. Do immigrants pay taxes, but use up more sources (medical ect..) than they pay into ..The answer lies in 30% welfare use in California..
You can try to spin it as you choose – The poor in california/Orange Country are illegal immigrants and their children..
The word poor means below the poverty line – the poor do not pay federal and state income tax -period – if they do, they get the money back!
And they use welfare to subsidize their income!
Its a fact!
I do however very much support a guess worker program minus the welfare… If you employee cheap labor from another country you should pay for all their benefits and costs..
I watched the first video.
Great job Francisco in your reporting, staying cool, being fair, and a gentleman.
Your addition to the OJ blog is a win-win.
I have heard many positive comments from my father, a veteran as well, about your leadership abilities.
Good luck,
Jose Moreno jr.
1. What is with the ‘lily white’ comment? Nice to have an objective point of view
on the matter, from the get go no less. There are many people of color: brown, yellow,
black, mixed races, etc., who do in fact support some form of illegal alien immigration
reform, and also oppose it. Just as there are many, many white people who oppose the
bill. Racism goes both ways, and it’s a shame the left often feels it can toss around
hateful words and rants, w/o responsibility.
2. Please present the same camera angles on those cursing & intimidating the pro-Arizona
reform law supporters. The ones with scarves covering their face, holding up communist
signs, members of stated groups like ANSWER, NION, Socialist Party, anarchist groups,
etc. Just your run of the mill anti-illegal alien immigration group folks. A large peaceful and energetic protest will get the message across w/more power, than a bunch of
professional anarchists who like to break windows, and vandalize property ever will…..
for or against.
3. I am disappointed Arizona has felt the political and social need to word for word
copy the federal law we have, and instill it as a state law……but, that is due to one
simple fact: the federal govt. has failed the State of Arizona by not doing its job on
purpose. The Arizona law does not say a cop can stop anyone for ‘looking’ illegal.
It only adds to state law what the feds can do, if in the process of being questioned
about a crime or illegal act, or being booked or jailed, you can be questioned about
your residency status – legal or illegal – documents or not.
Ask Washington, D.C. why it has failed to ask arrested aliens if they are legal or
illegal, why it has failed to deport known illegal aliens in custody for crimes, why
it fails to enforce work laws, why it has failed to give our border patrol the means to
do their job much better.
But, I put the blame on our federal govt. Not Arizona. Where 70% of the public
support the new law, and that includes many people of latino and asian and african
american backgrounds. Fed up with the cost and impact of unfettered numbers of illegal
aliens in their state, schools, neighborhoods, hospitals, etc., draining much needed
funds from legal residents of the state. I am sure the recent murder of a border farmer
by a suspect who is an illegal alien didnt’ hurt the passage of the bill. Nor has the
horrible economy in Arizona. Nor has the increased levels of horrendous violence in
the border regions, on both sides.
4. This law will be moot very soon, as Obama and the Democrats will push to have a
100% open border, and full amnesty soon. Which will ensure a 100% Democratic Party power
base for decades to come. A cheap, undereducated, permanent lower class of voters to
prop up one party – forever. Which is the real reason the Democrats want amnesty so fast.
5. Stop blaming the GOP for daring to ask the question: what does our border mean anyway?
What do our laws mean anyway? George W. Bush and John McCain both supported, for years,
a form of amnesty for some illegal aliens, and immigration reform – Bush as Governor & President, McCain as a Senator & Presidential candidate. They could not have been more
pro-illegal immigration reform. The media painted them just the opposite. From Lindsay
Graham to Rick Perry, Republicans do support immigration reform. Just add in the fact
they wish to have a permanently stronger border, with enforced laws, to go w/that reform.
Obama and the Democrats do not. Thus, we get Arizona throwing up its hands to say, hey,
we’ll add the federal mandates to our state law, and they did. Right or wrong, I get why
they did it. Let’s start asking Washington D.C. why it has failed the border states so badly.
Lastly, anyone in this nation illegaly should be thankful we don’t do what Mexico does
to illegal aliens. Or for that matter, even Canada, kick them out asap, and arrest those
who assist them to stay illegally.
1. What is with the ‘lily white’ comment?
Shall I phrase that differently? I like to use colorful language. (The last word of my article called hispanics “tontos” or fools for not voting in greater numbers.) What I was saying was pointing out the irony that it took the one brown-skinned Mexican-American in the room to show these – let’s say, immigration hardliners who want to limit his kind – how to present the US flag.
2. Please present the same camera angles on those cursing & intimidating the pro-Arizona reform law supporters.
You know, sometimes those people do irritate me, their style and tactics at least. But I basically sympathize with most of their positions, so why should I waste my time criticizing them publicly, when you can do that yourself? (Knock yourself out!)
Just your run of the mill anti-illegal alien immigration group folks. A large peaceful and energetic protest will get the message across w/more power, than a bunch of professional anarchists who like to break windows, and vandalize property ever will….. for or against.
Um… agreed! (and some snarky well-researched blogging can help too! I hope)
Hey, let me get the rest of your comment later, I’ve got to go give grief to Mayor Minuetmansoor.
Cheers – Vern
Frankie – Excellent!
One thing that you guys must stop using is the word “American.” We are all Americans (from Canada to tip of Chile). America is a CONTINENT ( and it is one, not two or three)not a country. It is the United States OF America. A country that belongs to the American Continent. Named after Amerigo Vespucci who was one of the first to drew the American CONTINENT and also one of the first to contradict Christopher Columbus’erroneous belief that he had reached India.
It is hilarious that this country with its Imperialistic Mentality think that they ARE America which they are NOT. They don’t even have an English word to call themselves but the erroneous proper name of American. We have your proper name in Spanish. No, it is not the one that has to do with the color of your old uniform followed by the verb “go”. It is the correct one that you shouuld be called if you are born or become a citizen of THESE UNITED STATES :Estados Unidenses!!
So, why don’t you first come up with a proper name to call yourselves and then let’s debate what to do with these “illegal” who come to your country because your goverment not only allows it but also encourages it. Ask your government to pull out the military from other people countries, to stop forming “guerillas” through your Special forces and CIA and do actually what the kind nick name we gave you once suggested “GREE GOOOOOOO!”
INTERESTING READING;
Behind The Arizona Immigration Law: GOP Game to Swipe the November Election
Monday 26 April 2010
by: Greg Palast, t r u t h o u t | Report
Our investigation in Arizona discovered the real intent of the show-me-your-papers law.
Phoenix – Don’t be fooled. The way the media plays the story, it was a wave of racist, anti-immigrant hysteria that moved Arizona Republicans to pass a sick little law, signed last week, requiring every person in the state to carry papers proving they are US citizens.
I don’t buy it. Anti-Hispanic hysteria has always been as much a part of Arizona as the saguaro cactus and excessive air-conditioning.
What’s new here is not the politicians’ fear of a xenophobic “Teabag” uprising.
What moved GOP Governor Jan Brewer to sign the Soviet-style show-me-your-papers law is the exploding number of legal Hispanics, US citizens all, who are daring to vote – and daring to vote Democratic by more than two-to-one. Unless this demographic locomotive is halted, Arizona Republicans know their party will soon be electoral toast. Or, if you like, tortillas.
In 2008, working for “Rolling Stone” with civil rights attorney Bobby Kennedy, our team flew to Arizona to investigate what smelled like an electoral pogrom against Chicano voters . . . directed by one Jan Brewer.
Brewer, then secretary of state, had organized a racially loaded purge of the voter rolls that would have made Katherine Harris blush. Beginning after the 2004 election, under Brewer’s command, no fewer than 100,000 voters, overwhelmingly Hispanic, were blocked from registering to vote. In 2005, the first year of the Great Brown-Out, one in three Phoenix residents found their registration applications rejected.
That statistic caught my attention. Voting or registering to vote if you’re not a citizen is a felony, a big-time jail-time crime. And arresting such criminal voters is easy: After all, they give their names and addresses.
So I asked Brewer’s office, had she busted a single one of these thousands of allegedly illegal voters? Did she turn over even one name to the feds for prosecution?
No, not one.
Which raises the question: Were these disenfranchised voters the criminal, non-citizens that Brewer tagged them to be, or just not-quite-white voters given the Jose Crow treatment, entrapped in document-chase trickery?
The answer was provided by a federal prosecutor who was sent on a crazy hunt all over the Western mesas looking for these illegal voters. “We took over 100 complaints, we investigated for almost two years, I didn’t find one prosecutable voter fraud case.”
This prosecutor, David Iglesias, is a prosecutor no more. When he refused to fabricate charges of illegal voting among immigrants, his firing was personally ordered by the president of the United States, George W. Bush, under orders from his boss, Karl Rove.
Iglesias’ jurisdiction was next door, in New Mexico, but he told me that Rove and the Republican chieftains were working nationwide to whip up anti-immigrant hysteria with public busts of illegal voters, even though there were none.
“They wanted some splashy pre-election indictments,” Iglesias told me. The former prosecutor, himself a Republican, paid the price when he stood up to this vicious attack on citizenship.
But Secretary of State Brewer followed the Rove plan to a T. The weapon she used to slice the Arizona voter rolls was a 2004 law, known as “Prop 200,” which required proof of citizenship to register. It is important to see the Republicans’ latest legislative horror show, sanctioning cops to stop residents and prove citizenship, as just one more step in the party’s desperate plan to impede Mexican-Americans from marching to the ballot box.
For the entire article; http://www.truthout.org/behind-the-arizona-immigration-law-gop-game-to-swipe-the-november-election58877
“4) Are there violent crimes committed by illegal aliens?
YES, just as there are within the population at large.”
MQ says:
The big difference is the rest of the population are legal…
If violent crimes are committed by illegal Aliens, it’s a bit harder to swallow.. the only reason they were able to commit the crime’s is due to poor border control at the southern border…
The negligence of the American federal government to enforce the border and protect its Citizens has forced Arizona into trying to protect the Citizens themselves.
The fact the federal Government is trying to stop this- seems completely irrational to me..almost as if they view the Citizens as the criminals – there is almost a distain from the federal government regarding its own people…
I think it is time for states to tell the federal government to, SHOVE IT”, and for American Citizens to stop giving this passive aggressive government money!
“One thing that you guys must stop using is the word “American.”
MQ says:
And you’re point would be WHAT??
yes in The UNITED states of America we would be considered all AMERICANS if you have the legal right to call yourself that!
So would i not call all people who are citizen’s of America – American??
“It is hilarious that this country with its Imperialistic Mentality think that they ARE America which they are NOT. ”
MQ says:
You call it, IMPERIALISTIC’, because you would rather be sitting drinking a latte in you’re back yard. than helping to save lives.. You can leave that up to the Hero’s ( AMERICAN MILITARY)
HILARIOUS !
Michelle,
“So would i not call all people who are citizen’s of America – American??”
my point is that is the America is not a country, is a continent. Again everybody who is born in this continent is an American. Canadians are Americans. Mexicans are Americans. Chileans are Americans. The terms are “American” for someone who is either born here, or becomes a US Citizen is incorrect. Actually, you should just be called US Citizen period. Again, The United States is NOT America.
Second, What do you call country that invades other people’s country and attempts to control either through financial means or through the military to gain resources? That is called an Empire and that is precisely what the United States OF America has done for year. The US government does not care about the people in this country (unless they have money) much less people from other countries. The only time the US wants to get rid of another government is when that government is not benefiting US financially. Suddam Hussein was placed in power by the US. He was the same dictator then as he was later and the US looked away until he started messing with the oil that US wants so badly. Pinochet was placed in Chile by the US. He was just as a big monster as Hitler and worse because he dies peacefully in his bed. Trujillo was placed in Dominican Republic by the United Stated Of America. Another dictator that the US did not attempt to take out of power because he gave them what they wanted. But as soon as Juan Bosch was in place, a president with socialist inclination elected by the Dominican Republic citizen, the US invaded within month. Fidel Castro is in place still and will died peacefully because the US government wanted him there. If the US wanted to get rid of Fidel they would have done that long time ago.
In el Salvador the US sent CIA agents and Special Forces to train their guerilleros for year because they did not agree with the government. That’s why many of these people imigrated “illegally” to the US because at home their situation was chaotic thanks to The United States Of America.
So what is my point? If the US Citizens could just stop calling themselves “American” and realized that we ARE ALL AMERICANS maybe if could be a humble beginning to start talking. Second, if the US Citizens could just realize that these people come here because of situations that the US helps create in their country, then maybe the Citizens of this country could start looking for solutions beginning with getting OUT of other people’s country and then legalizing those who are already here.
Trust me, if the US minds its own business and deals with the problems here at home our situation would improve.
Third, I don’t drink coffee and I have helped saved many lives more than you think. I have a profession where I am saving lives everyday and in my younger years I did not ask my country would do for me, but what could I do for my country.. so I joined the US Army, Military Police Force and went to fight for the “freedom of the people of Kuwait” just to later find out that I was actually fighting for oil.
So.. enjoy your latter and don’t believe everything your read about “helping save lives” Because, actually, Michelle, I saw more dead bodies than saved lives