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The concept of the American Dream is one that I have always thought to be universal and defined simply as the opportunity that everyone in this country shares regardless of their skin color, their country of origin, their gender, their educational background or their family connections – everyone – has the opportunity through hard work, perseverance, ingenuity, luck and intelligence to obtain economic independence and affluence. I believed that the American Dream was symbolic of what our great country really was at its heart – a meritocracy – throwing off the burdens of classism and royalty which did, and to some measure still does, make the United State economically more powerful than its European parents.
If I have learned nothing else from blogging, I have learned to question all things I previously held as “universal.” An interchange I had recently with a series of educated, enlightened and smart folk I respect makes me pause and wonder if any universal beliefs still exist. It started with a “social media” posting of a joke by one of my respected friends:
”A public union employee, a tea party activist, and a CEO are sitting at a table with a plate of a dozen cookies in the middle of it. The CEO takes 11 of the cookies, turns to the tea partier and says, ‘Watch out for that union guy. He wants a piece of your cookie.'” (Stolen from a Newspaper Guild steward and friend) [Note, you can make this a Wisconsin-specific joke by changing cookies to slices-‘o-cheese].
I clearly got his point and clearly did not agree. For some reason, it has now evidently become criminal, unseemly and vile to succeed in life and to be rewarded for your efforts of hard work. This ran so counter to my belief that this is a great country because ANYONE can succeed with a combination of intelligence, hard work and good luck that I retorted with a twist on the joke of my own:
“A worker was sweating over a tray of cookies that they had baked when a state worker came in and took most of the cookies as taxes, fees and dues before the worker could even sell or eat them. The state worker handed the cookies over to a union boss who took a few and donated the rest to several Democratic candidates.”
The vitrolic responses to this on a public forum surprised me, though I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Simply as an example:
“Actually I come from the working class, and Geoff has no idea of what he speaks. If he wants to know what pressure and hard work is, he should try bringing up three kids as a single mother from a poor family. It’s the rich who have every priviledge and often inherit their fortunes who are parasitic of our work, in my view.”
Another parable was thrown into the mix as a further condenmation of the evils of capitalism:
“Let’s say you have 100 people lined up for 100 cookies. The very first guy (definitely a guy) takes 35 of the cookies for himself. By the time the first 10 people have passed by the cookie plate, 73 of the cookies are gone, leaving 27 cookies to divide among the remaining 90 people. By the time the next 10 people pass the cookie plate, there are only 15 cookies to divide among the remaining 80 people. And so on, until you have about 50 people forced to divide up the very last cookie”
Again, I missed the point of this – evidently this person thinks that the American Dream was written by Lenin (not of the Beatles) and Marx more than a century ago – “Each citizen works to their ability and takes based on their need.” According to this philosophy, there need be no connection between work effort, efficiency and compensation. I drafted my own little parable in response:
“Of course the first person studied really hard and got a number of degrees and then worked their tail off to learn how to run the business and proved that they could make difficult decisions under pressure while the last 50 people skipped school to party, didn’t think they needed to work and slept until all of the cookies had been passed out.”
Many of my friends evidently believe my defense of my view of the American Dream makes me a very evil person. I was told that I have no idea what it is like to have nothing, to work for a living, to be part of the poor and downtrodden. I was told that it is the birthright of all Americans to share equally in the American Dream – if some have worked harder, longer and more effeciently then there will simply be more for all of us to share. Really?
I come from a working class family. I put myself through a private college working full time and with no family or other help. I put myself through a UC law school working full time with no family or other help. During school I worked as a busboy, telemarketer, a 411 operator, Disney jungle cruise driver, a stand up comic, shrink wrapped educational flash cards and wrote computer user manuals. I raised three young boys by myself while working as a partner in a law firm before I met the love of my life seven years ago. I do know of what I speak and consider myself a part of the American Dream. I do not suffer well those that think they are owed by the government simply because they have blessed the earth with their presence.
I suspect you “have no idea what [you] speaks” on what it’s like to work for a living because you are now a lawyer doing pretty well. That you are now a lawyer, means, by default, it took no effort to get there because lawyers are all rich and therefore got there through wealth. A bit tautological, but I’m sure it works on some level…..
I find a couple things interesting about that point of view. I have students who are first generation college students who plan on becoming lawyers for the most part (teaching poli sci gets you the lawyer wanna-bes). This is the only reason they see for going to college. They come from working class families and I wonder what they would say if they knew that one day they will probably be viewed as overly privileged rich folk who have no idea what it’s like to work for a living.
I figure we’re living that Chinese curse/blessing: May you live in interesting times.
Well said.
Michael Moore says that all of your money is a national resource Geoff. It does not belong to you – it belongs to everyone. I think that Karl Marx & Vladamir Lenin thought along those same lines.
Funny thing about Michael Moore – he may spew that garbage but I don’t see him donating all of his money to charity or giving it to the government. Hypocrite.
Michael gives a lot to charity. Why should anybody give ALL their money to charity? Even that wouldn’t solve the underlying problems.
This guy makes me sick. He plays with the statistics with the best of them. “More rules is always better.” Let’s just take personal responsibility out of the private sector and make the government responsible for paying for all of our goofs. Until we remove this mentality from our personal lives, our business lives and our community lives we are not going to have the kind of economic strength that we have had in the past.
Let’s just take personal responsibility out of the private sector and make the government responsible for paying for all of our goofs.
That’s meant as a summation of Moore? I’m starting to guess you’ve never seen any of his films. Especially “Capitalism A Love Story,” which excoriates the lack of personal responsibility in the private sector, and the corrupt government (under both parties) for bailing the private sector out. How can Michael Moore make you sick when you’ve obviously never seen or heard him?
Vern, I have seen several of his films, though mostly as comic relief. I do look back as the scene in Roger & Me when the supposed “friend of the people” mocks some poor woman who sold rabbits by the roadside. I couldn’t stomach watching a movie in which he tried to paint the totalitarian Cuban regime in a positive light (“Sicko”), but I think I have seen the rest of his garbage.
Well… apparently you don’t quite get him. He was not mocking that rabbit woman, he was showing her plight with sympathy, and a little gentle humor as he always does. And Castro’s Cuba was only shown positively in the way that even a third-world country can give its people better health care than we can, with our stubborn attachment to the for-profit insurance industry.
Well, bully for you Geoff, you made it, too bad you don’t care whether other Americans will be able to enjoy that same success story.
That “American dream” is fast becoming a thing of the past and not because people aren’t working hard but because the odds are stacked ever higher against them. You talk of a “meritocracy”, did you know that it’s easier for a poor person to climb the economic ladder in many European countries than it is in the US?
From Business Insider:
Social Immobility: Climbing The Economic Ladder Is Harder In The U.S. Than In Most European Countries: Is America the “land of opportunity”? Not so much. A new report from the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD) finds that social mobility between generations is dramatically lower in the U.S. than in many other developed countries. So if you want your children to climb the socioeconomic ladder higher than you did, move to Canada.
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/03/social-immobility-climbing-the-economic-ladder-is-harder-in-the-us-than-in-most-european-countries.html
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Let’s look at how most a\Americans (including yourself) have “gotten ahead”, through education, specifically college. It’s not the ticket to success that it once was.
Since real wages haven’t kept up with inflation, not only is that college diploma far more expensive the earning power of that diploma is far less. Most kids are forced to take out student loans that will take them decades to repay. They are being saddled with tremendous debt before they even begin their working life.
Eye opening article from Business Insider;
Today it is 400% more expensive to go to college in the United States than it was just 30 years ago.
Read more:http://www.businessinsider.com/facts-about-student-loan-debt-2010-12#ixzz1FcFIchYw
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And your story of working your way through college, harder (and mostly impossible) to do today;
From the CPEC;
College Costs and Family
Income: The Affordability Issue at UC and CSU
Can students work their way through college?
In the past, many students financed their education with part-time or summer jobs. However, wages in low-skilled jobs have not kept up with inflation. Today seasonal or part-time work in construction, retail, or food service does not pay enough to make much of a dent in college costs.
In 1980, the average wage for retail workers was $4.90 an hour. By working 12 weeks over the summer at 40 hours a week a student could earn $2,300, over half of the cost of attending UC as residential student for a year and nearly all of the cost of attending CSU as a commuter student.
College costs have grown much faster than wages. In 2009, the average wage for retail salespeople was $10.90 an hour. A student working 12 weeks over the summer would earn $5,200, only enough to pay 20% of the current cost of a year at UC, and 40% of the cost of attending CSU as a commuter student (and that’s not figuring in the huge jumps in tuition over the last 2 years)
http://www.cpec.ca.gov/Agendas/Agenda1103/Item_04.pdf
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“I do not suffer well those that think they are owed by the government simply because they have blessed the earth with their presence.” – GW
I hope you are not referring to the government workers in WI, because they might not make as much money as you do, but that doesn’t mean they haven’t played by the same rules.
Let’s look at the teachers, they went to school and they go to work everyday, that is NOT asking or expecting a handout from the government. The starting salary for a teacher in WI is $25,222, how do we expect that new teacher to pay back their student loans, get married, buy a house, start a family and save for retirement on that kind of salary? I know, I know they are not entitled to do those things, but if we want the middle class to survive, we as a society NEED them to be able to do those very things.
A decent wage, affordable education and a decent retirement plan are the backbone of our middle class, it’s what built it and what we need to sustain it.
You can make fun of Michael Moore, but he is a successful person who wants other Americans to have the same opportunities as he had, unlike you, who seems to need others to struggle so as to make your own success seem even grander by comparison.
People like you disgust me, you are small-minded, hard-hearted and, really, the worst kind of American and human being.
“People like you disgust me, you are small minded, hard hearted and really, the worst kind of american and human being.”
Well, the real YOU comes out Annonster. You don’t know me and have no idea about what my life is like. I believe that it is MY responsibility to help those that are in need, not the governments responsibility. I believe that charity, help and support is a PERSONAL responsibility not a government responsibility. I take these beliefs and put them into action in big and small ways from taking folks into my house that need a little time to get back on their feet, to donating to both families and people in need to helping other families kids with tutoring that need a little extra help. Those are just some of the ways that I try to put my money where my mouth is. I also believe that seeking credit for those things diminishes them so I try and minimize the attention drawn to these acts of helping those in need.
If you feel like you want to attack someone, that is your prerogative, you might just want to find out a little about them before launching that kind of attack.
It’s OK, I forgive you – you simply couldn’t help yourself.
” I believe that it is MY responsibility to help those that are in need, not the governments responsibility. I believe that charity, help and support is a PERSONAL responsibility not a government responsibility. I take these beliefs and put them into action in big and small ways from taking folks into my house that need a little time to get back on their feet, to donating to both families and people in need to helping other families kids with tutoring that need a little extra help.”
Kind of like what Russell Means has done for the Lakota Sioux on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. Instead of relying on the government subsidies, he set out and created the only non-government funded clinic on an Indian reservation much to the chagrin of many in the Lakota leadership who were content with sticking with the status quo. The Porcupine Health Clinic is very successful and is still operating today.
Too many people who believe that it’s the government role to provide for all of our needs from the cradle to the grave seem to operate under the assumption that people are evil, intolerant and cold hearted by nature. In fact, some of these people that have been accused of such atrocities have been some of the most open, empathetic and warm hearted people I have ever met.
Which begs the question. Who are the real intolerant people? With the exception of Vern and my wife, I would dare say it’s the people who claim the mantle of “tolerance” that are the most intolerant people I have ever met.
Kudos to you Geoff for your voluntary good works. You have shown that we don’t need to force people to be charitable at gunpoint.
Individual and group charitable works are great, but they are NOT a replacement for good responsible government. Charities can’t provide food, shelter and medical aid to over 40 million people, the need is too great.
From the Census;
WASHINGTON — The number of people living in poverty in America rose by nearly 4 million to 43.6 million in 2009 — the largest figure in the 51 years for which poverty estimates are available — the Census Bureau said Thursday.
The bureau said in a statement that the official poverty rate was 14.3 percent, or 1 in 7 of Americans, the highest proportion of the population since 1994.
Yes, the federal government take over all programs – after all, we all know how efficiently the government dispenses services – always without fraud, corruption or waste – let’s have the government take over EVERYTHING!! No wait, Russia tried that and it didn’t work.
As with any large (or even small) group, organization or government enterprise there will always be fraud, waste and corruption, that is a given, but we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Geoff would have us believe that our mail is never delivered, that our spigots run dry, that our military is second rate, that Social Security checks aren’t supporting huge numbers of our senior citizens and that medicare isn’t saving many of their lives everyday.
But americans are soooo generous and charities can do it all, that’s why food banks are NEVER empty;
Food Bank Shortages In NYC – The Consumerist
… The New York Times is reporting barren food banks in NYC this Thanksgiving season, … Nov 12, 2010 .
Foodbank reports shortage, asks for public help | HamptonRoads.com …
Sep 24, 2010 … NORFOLK The Foodbank of Southeastern Virginia has hit a critical shortage in donations and is asking for the public’s help.
hamptonroads.com › Home › News
Food banks squawk over turkey shortage – BostonHerald.com
Food banks squawk over turkey shortage. By Laura Crimaldi Saturday, November 13, 2010
…
Ballard Food Bank Struggling with Turkey Shortage – Seattle …
Nov 23, 2010 … Looking for an excuse to go out in lieu of cooking this Thanksgiving?
Food Bank Faces Shortage – WSB News on wsbradio.com
Food Bank Faces Shortage. By. Jay Black. @ December 3, 2010
South Plains Food Bank experiencing food shortage crisis – KCBD …
Aug 10, 2010 … LUBBOCK, TX (KCBD) – An extreme food shortage prompts the South Plains Food Bank to call an emergency food drive and they need the …
Morning Roundup: Food Bank Shortages, Career Opportunities and …
Dec 16, 2009 … By the Way Morning Roundup: Food Bank Shortages, … Posted by Wen Tototzintle on March 14, 2010
http://www.nashvillescene.com/…/morning-roundup-food-bank-shortages-
Richmond food bank facing shortages | The Commonwealth Times
Richmond food bank facing shortages. Monday, November 22nd, 2010 |
Seattle food bank faces its own rice shortage | The Big Blog …
Apr 28, 2008 … Seattle’s Asian Counseling and Referral Service Food Bank, … take on a new significance with rice shortage stories in the headlines. …
As much as we Americans will bash each other from time to time, philanthropy is something that while not quite wholly American is embedded in the web of our fabric in ways European nations don’t get and don’t understand. After Hurricane Katrina, private philonthopists of all shapes, sizes and classes swarmed into New Orleans to help with no expectation of anything in return. Following 9/11, Americans rose up and “took care of their own.” We don’t realize how blessed we are to live in a country that still “walks the walk.” I would hate to see that diluted by replacing private philanthropy with publc hand outs more than we already have.
I can’t resist one barb:
“There is nothing so intolerant as liberal preaching tolerance.” William F. Buckley
Geoff,
I don’t need to know you, I am judging you by what you have written, right here, on the OJ blog.
You have portrayed average hard working americans as greedy and undeserving of a decent salary and retirement.
“A worker was sweating over a tray of cookies that they had baked when a state worker came in and took most of the cookies as taxes, fees and dues before the worker could even sell or eat them. The state worker handed the cookies over to a union boss who took a few and donated the rest to several Democratic candidates.”
Sorry, but I find that disgusting.
“A worker was sweating over a tray of cookies that they had baked when a state worker came in and took most of the cookies as taxes, fees and dues before the worker could even sell or eat them. The state worker handed the cookies over to a union boss who took a few and donated the rest to several Democratic candidates.”
That sounds like how I felt after I saw what was taken out of my annual bonus check. The check that I received from my non-union, self salary negotiated job.
I agree with you Anonster. That is disgusting. As in having 50% of what I earned from my labor (aka work, job….you do know what that is, right??) taken from me to add to government waste, neglect and mismanagement and pad the pockets and retirements of bureaucrats who would barely qualify for a job scooping ice cream at Thrifty. And then they ask for more and more. Oh wait, people like you think I’m too stupid to know what to do with my money anyway. That same money that could have been used to help my family or help other people on a voluntary, not compulsory basis. Face it, you are not entitled to what I’ve earned.
Screw it you aren’t going to listen anyway or make any coherent arguments that are backed up with facts or real life examples. You’ll make your monolithic cliched arguments straight from the talking points of the Daily Kos and attack those people who have actually achieved something in their lives through their own labor and initiative. Besides what’s the point of having a mature dialogue with someone whose screen name is a character in a Nintendo video game, Wario Land 3? (http://www.mariowiki.com/Anonster) You are welcome to engage in a mature dialogue after you leave your mother’s spare bedroom and save Zelda from Donkey Kong, Flattop or whoever the cartoon villan is for the 1 billionth time.
http://www.mariowiki.com/Anonster
Guy Fawkes,
Amusing having you accuse me of hiding behind a moniker, whatever.
I have been accused on this blog of being a teacher, a college professor, a doctor, Dan C., a union boss and an adult who lives in my mother’s spare bedroom and or the basement, it seems to me that whenever one of you “geniuses” can’t make a decent argument for your point of view, you jump to attacking either my “secret identity” or what ever it is you suppose that I do.
Funny, I don’t believe I’ve ever had to resort to these childish and desperate dodges, my arguments and your arguments should be able to stand alone, judged solely on their merit.
So let’s take a look at the “merits” of your argument, shall we.
I agree with you that paying taxes can be painful and I also agree that they go to a lot of wasteful enterprises. I believe that we don’t get a lot for our tax dollars, with what we pay in taxes we should all get free health care and education.
So where do we differ, oh that’s right, you want to jump on Geoff’s bandwagon and blame government workers, the people who test your water, who teach your kids, who pave your roads etc. You would prefer that they at least make LESS than you and if you don’t have a retirement plan, they shouldn’t either.
I on the other hand KNOW where the bulk of my tax dollars go; to the defense budget. 54% in fact, we spend 10 times what our nearest competitor, China, does.
The waste and fraud in the defense budget are legend. Do you remember the big hullabaloo about the Acorn scandal, that small group of community organizers who were accused of corruption and lost their federal funding. They had received 50 million dollars over a period of 15 years, a lesser known scandal was KBR they were accused of misusing BILLIONS of dollars, yet they continue to get huge federal contracts.
Then there are the corporate welfare queens, Boeing,Citigroup, Bank of America etc., I’d like to see them pay their fair share of taxes. http://www.boingboing.net/2011/02/27/why-are-americas-lar.html
Bottom line, I’d rather my money was spent on the people who actually do the work that makes my life better and possible. These people deserve a decent standard of living and remember they’re taxpayers too.
I have never written that the american worker is “greedy and underserving of a decent salary and retirement.” I believe that those that work hard are deserving of a decent salary and retirement. I don’t believe that you, Anonster, are the sole determiner of what is a decent salary and whose obligation it is to provide that. I do believe that union bosses look out for themselves at the EXPENSE of those that pay them – selfishly and corruptly – your words of protest and personal attacks lead me to believe that YOU are one of those greedy and corrupt union bosses – I will never know – you continue to hide behind the cloak of secrecy not willing to take personal responsibility for your “brave” words.
Geoff,
Let’s analyze this little instructional parable you came up with;
“A worker was sweating over a tray of cookies that they had baked when a state worker came in and took most of the cookies as taxes, fees and dues before the worker could even sell or eat them. The state worker handed the cookies over to a union boss who took a few and donated the rest to several Democratic candidates.”
What is the message you are trying to convey?
First we have the sweating worker who bakes the cookies, he’s obviously good (he’s sweating, for god’s sake), then a “state worker” comes and takes most of them, obviously bad, very bad, (taking, more like stealing), NO MENTION that the “state worker” also works, providing services such as keeping the water running, educating kids, fighting fires, etc., no they’re just taking the money for taxes, fees and dues, in other words, for nothing.
If you don’t think that is belittling and diminishing what these hard working people do everyday, you are living on another planet.
Then we have the “union boss” who also just “takes” no mention again, that this person is an elected representative who also provides a service, no just a total character smear.
Yeah, your a swell guy.
Obviously I have hit very close to home for you. By the way, its “you’re” a swell guy, NOT your a swell guy. Guess union bosses just need to have sham elections and not real educations.
I pretty much gave up a while back on correcting people’s apostrophes. Some of them don’t have as much college as you and I, and some of them are just passionate and in a hurry. Correcting an apostrophe is usually a sign that you’ve run out of other arguments.
Big mea culpa on the apostrophe, I hate when that happens.
Now you have to admit that you worked as a “shrink wrapped educational flash cards”.
Two can play that game.
YOU are cool Mr. Willis!
I am actually just enjoying sitting back and observing the way you cream your opponents! Now I understand what a Harvard education is vs a long Beach one!:)
No offense Long Beach Students! 🙁
Or an unemployed person with a huge chip on their shoulder that thinks the world owes him/her/gender neutral everything or that they are entitled to other people’s money. Actually that’s more than disgusting. It’s disturbing and pathetic.
Anonster. You seem pretty angry. I’ll go to my collective and see if medical marijuana would help with what seems to be making you angry and bitter. As someone who is currently on the Green Rx, I can tell you that I find that the quality of my life and happiness increases when I take some hits from the vaporizer. Plus, I’m able to achieve greater focus, think more clearly and form more coherent thoughts when I take the Green Rx. When I don’t take the Green Rx and let the cannabinoids decrease in my system, I end up going off on hyperbolic tangents and making baseless attacks on other people’s character. Kind of like what you are currently doing to Geoff, Newbie, junior and me.
Add a three week hiatus from the blogosphere and a trip to Las Vegas to the mix. I highly recommend The Orleans Hotel and Casino. A nice off Strip resort with reasonable room rates, lots of nickel video poker machines, a killer buffet and free drinks in the casino. On second thought, lay off the booze and stick with the non alcoholic beer (don’t forget to tip the server…with money). Before you know it, you’ll be good as new with a refreshed outlook on life, a renewed sense of humor and at peace with yourself and others who you may or may not see eye to eye with. Trust me, it worked for me.
Hell, I’ll even pay for your doctor’s rec (a $55 value) and maybe give you a joint or two of my current script. (You see, it’s called voluntary charity). As far as purchasing strains and finding a collective, you’re (see I used the right contraction…an “A” for me!) on your own. Yeah, I know. It’s a cruel, unfair world.
By the way, the Dan C./Girl Scout post was a parody on the nanny state and mocking his self righteous, sanctimonious behavior. I know it’s not my best work. But I keep trying!
When you’re out of facts, then go into a snarky little commentary that’s off topic. I note that none of Mr. Willis’s suppporters, or he for that matter, addressed the elephant in the room–income inequality and the concentration of the contry’s assets in the hands of the select few. The average working stiff is frozen out of their circles, and you folks are cheerleading it–for what purpose, I’m completely baffled.
“The average working stiff is frozen out of their circles, and you folks are cheerleading it–for what purpose, I’m completely baffled.”
Its not that we are not addressing this issue – its that you are either not hearing our answer or refusing to recognize out answers.
To be clear – 1) I reject the concept that the “average working stiff is frozen out of their circles.” I came from a family of “working stiffs” and was able to work may way up the food chain through hard work and perseverance. 2) As the working class demands more and more benefits through the government coffers their will be an increasing disparity of wealth. If you want to reduce this disparity back to historical levels, simply remove the government programs. The problem with removing all government programs is that their will be those at the very bottom whose basic needs will go unmet and no one wants that.
Rapscallion, the reason that you are baffled is that you are a socialist and outright reject the basic tenants of capitalism. That doesn’t make you a bad person, but your lack of willingness to even acknowledge another viewpoint will probably leave you frequently frustrated.
T
GF,
“Anonster. You seem pretty angry.”
LOL, this from the dude who writes posts smearing people for things they’ve never said or done.
As for the whole marijuana/Vegas thing, I think you’re over thinking/obsessing, just address the issues and viewpoints that are ACTUALLY being written about and expressed.
LOL….She is the bra burning type the solider spitting type, she is a liberal and of course she is angry…. With that personality, I would be furious!
All that screwing and smoking pot….I suppose that catches up with ya in the end dude!
🙂
see ya tomorrow quinn. high quality stuff, dude!
Stop taking out some of my comments and censoring as well or I will no longer post at your communist site!
That’s 2 today… was there anything you wanted to repeat from your comments #6-10 last night?
And this is the last one. You have distorted the integrity and the honesty of this site, that I thought was refreshing and different. Even though Art, and I completely disagree most times, I always knew that he would post my rebuttals and I really respected him for that.
YOu are a typical liberal, hypocritical and dishonest in every way!
I hope, one day you can learn to respect the freedom and value of speech!
What rebuttals? You don’t know what a rebuttal is. All you post are insults.
MQ.
Vern is the editor of this “free” access web site. Please don’t wear out your welcome.
While you surely have made valid contributions to the debate step back and see how frequently you have hijacked the posts. Even as we have three minutes to speak at city council meetings, even there we must stay within the established policy limits.
Larry, there is nothing welcoming about this site! Wise up!
It is insulting to you Vern, because it is the truth. Like I said you cannot handle the truth. You live in bubble and are completely foolish when it comes to the world around you!
Insults are only insulting if they actually have some sort of value to them!
I have never been insulted by any of your nasty, childish and elitist remarks, because they have no value!
So, you have worn out YOUR welcome in my life, because I don’t like intolerant people!
Yeah, yeah, your comment yesterday about anonster “burning her bra,” “spitting on soldiers,” and doing “all that screwing and smoking pot” was just “the truth” that we “can’t handle.”
Just get lost.
MQ. If there is nothing welcoming on this site pray tell, than why are you here?
Why do you abuse the welcome mat by posting numerous comments on our stories?
You have added more comments than most of our readers yet Vern has bent over backwards to accomodate you.
If you are so unhappy with the Orange Juice blog you are always free to leave.
Geoff,
“As the working class demands more and more benefits through the government coffers THEIR will be an increasing disparity of wealth. If you want to reduce this disparity back to historical levels, simply remove the government programs. The problem with removing all government programs is that THEIR will be those at the very bottom whose basic needs will go unmet and no one wants that.”
By the way, it should actually read “there will be” (once, a mistake,twice=ignorance), I guess lawyers get to charge big fees, but don’t need to know basic english.
Haven’t you ever heard the old adage; “people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”?
Oh, and by the by, aren’t you going to set-the-record-straight for MQ, Mr. Harvard graduate?
GW’s education;
J.D., University of California, Hastings College of the Law, 1986
B.A., Government, Pomona College, 1983
Hastings? Did you know Don “Spanky” Wagner there?
I know Don, but I don’t remember him from Hastings. Hastings has big law school classes.
Oh, you got me Anonster – I did have a typo in one of my posts! You score a big point there!
GW,
Let’s set the record straight, first you’re the one who started playing “grammar cop”, secondly, using “their” instead of “there” twice in one paragraph is not a “typo”.
I have always felt that if a poster is able to convey their message without too much effort being put forth by the reader, that any grammar/spelling mistakes should be ignored, after all, nobody is perfect and to bring such things up is just petty.
In that light, that is why I never respond to the great one, who can’t be bothered to make his posts even slightly intelligible, Stanislav is not much better, MQ has improved greatly in this area, although I chastise her for not using spell check, because I believe she knows how to use it and it is still difficult at times to discern the meaning of her posts.
Going forward I will refrain from criticizing your grammar/spelling and will restrict my comments to the substance of your posts.
Which brings me to the substance of your post,
“If you want to reduce this disparity back to historical levels, simply remove the government programs.”
Please explain, what “historical level” did you find to be ideal and when was it and which government programs are you referring to?
“The problem with removing all government programs is that their will be those at the very bottom whose basic needs will go unmet and no one wants that.”
I take it that you’re saying that we need to find the right balance of government services,( which is the blend of free market capitalism and socialism that we now have) which I can say with probable certainty that Rapscallion and I are in complete agreement with you (although where that “balance” should be is in dispute).
But in your next paragraph you accuse Rapscallion of being a “socialist”;
“Rapscallion, the reason that you are baffled is that you are a socialist and outright reject the basic tenants [sic – TENETS – ed.] of capitalism.”
Why is Rapscallion a socialist and you are not, didn’t you just say that you believe we need to have some level of government services and why is it that just because Rapscallion and I believe in a higher level of government services than you do, that that automatically means we reject capitalism?
These either/or type scenarios are only meant to deceive and distract from real substantive discussion.
anonster. Grammar cop.
As its a new month I will thank you for not calling me on the carpet whenever I fail to devote time making sure that I dot every”i” and cross every “t” in my posts.
Proper use of English is not and was never my strong suit. That shortcoming was always covered by the Register editorial writers in all of my prior guest view articles. The message I tried to convey was the key and others covered my back.
“I will refrain from criticizing your grammar/spelling and will restrict my comments to the substance of your posts.”
How f++king magnanamous of you anonster.
Is asshole (ass hole) one word or two words?
Hey dumb-bell, aka; junior,
I didn’t start the grammar pissing match, Geoff did.
It’s true, junior & Larry.
http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2011/03/chasing-the-american-dream/comment-page-1/#comment-159913
“These either/or type scenarios are only meant to deceive and distract from real substantive discussion.”
Exactly.
It’s the conservative mindset. The world exists in black and white, and in that world one must turn everything into a series of false choices. Notice how someone being an advocate of a government that provides a DEGREE of a safety net for the poor becomes someone who wants ALL (go ahead, reread some of the comments above) of people’s needs provided by the government. Yes, the word “all” does appear in that context in several comments.
A false choice. All or nothing. Or at least next to nothing.
Balance. Perspective. Shades of grey. These are concepts foreign to the ideologically-driven conservative mind.
Yo Geoff, you forgot to factor in that you’re a white American male and had quite a few more doors opened before you dropped from the womb. Basically you had a head start on, conservatively, 75% of the people on the planet. Not conceding that point makes your argument insipid whining.
Next time around, start out in Harlem or Pine Ridge.
Geoff.
I’m so glad to see LBM going after another blogger from our city. You might be surprised to discover who LBM is as he hides behind his alias handle.
Like the majority of us, you expose yourself to attacks with every post. The Register or the Saddleback Valley News that he reads would never accept his rambling attacks without providing his real name and phone number [on letters to the editor] for verification.
He is afraid to let us know who he is. For that I discount much of what he has to say.
Hey Larry, the blogosphere, from the very beginning, has been characterized by the ability to make anonymous comments. It’s one of the things that makes the blogosphere unique.
If you don’t like that, you really shouldn’t be authoring or commenting on blogs.
You want people to ignore grammar and stick to the issues? Fine. You need to do the same when it comes to anonymous comments. You say you want to focus on the substance of what people say, but then you also want to discount anonymous comments. Make up your mind!
anon. You have never seen a comment posted by me that did not carry my true name.
While I can understand that there are public officials or school teachers who need to have that anonymous protection as they often represent “whistle blowers,” Little Big Man from Mission Viejo is not in that group. In fact he might be one of the few people banned from the OJ. For that reason he comes with a scorched earth agenda that distorts facts.
Larry, I keep telling you. Little Big Man is NOT the dreaded “Insufferable Dan Avery.” Why are some of you people so incapable of telling obviously different writers apart?
“You have never seen a comment posted by me that did not carry my true name.”
I didn’t say I had. But big deal…so you use your real name.
anon.
Have you ever been in a court of law? A right for each of us to face our accusor.
It would be nice to see, or at least know the true name of, our accusor but that is not the case on some blogs. Case in point our very own Mission Viejo Dispatch that is read by almost every manager in our city hall. The city manager has added comments on that local blog where his uses his own name. Every person submitting comments must provide some basic info. including his or her name. It’s really painless. Try it sometime.
Larry, let me get this straight, once and for all;
It is not I who have chosen to author and comment on a blog that allows anonymous commenting (this one). YOU have chosen to do that. To piss and moan about anonymous commenters really just makes you look silly.
And your court of law analogy is even sillier.
Anonymous bloggers are symptomatic of the modern philosophy that we shouldn’t be held responsible for our actions. You can say anything you want and hide behind the cloak of anonymity without consequence. The only response to this I have heard is “its always been that way.” Dumb excuse for avoiding responsibility and courage of conviction.
How does your friend Newbie feel about that, Geoff?
Actually, I don’t personally like anonymity for ANY of those reasons.
I like it because I think it helps focus a debate on WHAT is said…not WHO is saying it. I couldn’t care less about knowing who someone is, what their history is. It’s what they SAY that matters in the blogosphere. It’s a form of debate unlike others…and it doesn’t need to be like the others.
I could just as easily make up a name that looks like a real person, but you STILL wouldn’t know who I was. So what? The whole issue is much ado about nothing.
The whole “grammar cop” thing has been a very interesting look at conservative reading comprehension, at which Guy, Larry and junior failed or maybe it just shows how these conservatives process the information they read to fit their preconceived notions of victimization, even Geoff felt victimized.
Anyway, a big hat tip to Vern, for being such a good editor, I’m sure it’s not an easy job.
There is a great article in the Daily Kos about this very issue, here’s a short version;
Why it’s okay to hate union workers
By now you’ve heard the cookie joke. You know: a CEO, a tea party member, and a union worker are all sitting at a table when a plate with a dozen cookies arrives. Before anyone else can make a move, the CEO reaches out to rake in eleven of the cookies. When the other two look at him in surprise, the CEO locks eyes with the tea party member. “You better watch him,” the executive says with a nod toward the union worker. “He wants a piece of your cookie.”
It’s funny for the same reason most good jokes are funny, because it contains a strong element of truth. This little game, pitting one group of working class voters against another, isn’t just a trick, it’s the trick. It’s what enables bankers to rob the nation blind and walk away. It’s what lets executives take an ever larger share of corporate income when they’re doing well, a larger share when they’re doing poorly, a larger share when they’re staying, and a larger share when they’re leaving. It’s what allows corporations to sit on the greatest stacks of money the world has ever seen, turn profits that dwarf those of even a few years ago, and still demand that their workers surrender a little more. A little more. A little more, please. Thanks, now get out. ………..
……. Instead, those at the top have always found it easy to get people to champion their cause. There’s always a group that feels wounded, angry and neglected. This group is susceptible to being told that they’re better than some other group, that some other group is getting a better deal, that some other group deserves to be put in its place. It doesn’t matter if that group is called Irish or Italian, Black or Hispanic, Union members or government workers. Anyone can be painted as a threat with enough hot air and yellow journalism. Anyone. …..
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/06/953112/-Why-its-okay-to-hate-union-workers
anonster. You are clueless about who I am.
And while I don’t devote time and effort on checking my grammar, spelling or misuse of the English language, I have lived the American dream.
Earlier this week I saw a few short books making fun of statements made by George W Bush. As such you might compile a list of our blog errors. Don’t get off the thread when we make solid arguments supporting our positions. There is one reader from Mission Viejo whose only issue with my remarks was my spelling and improper use of words. Now that’s important.
Again, Larry… Geoff did start it, not anonster. (Although I like to do the same thing to Matt at Red County and Dan at Liberal OC because they’re both pretentious jerks who aren’t as smart as they think.)
“…maybe it just shows how these conservatives process the information they read to fit their preconceived notions…”
Yes. The belief comes first. Objective reality and inconvenient facts are merely sliced, diced, and recast into a new, alternative reality. Or ignored altogether.
That’s how Fox News can present a Gallup Poll saying that the majority of Americans do not support collective bargaining, when in reality the poll said the exact opposite. Then you offer a fleeting apology at the end of the show. But by then, the damage is done, and they know it. Reality altered.
Yes, let’s talk about reporting and altered reality. On Friday CNN reports that 192,000 jobs were created last month crediting Obama policies. I then turned to Fox that reported that the “net gain” was only. 100,000 jobs which is barely enough jobs to accommodate new entries into the work force and will do nothing to reduce the unemployment rats. I checked into things and found that both were technically correct. There were 192,000 jobs added, but 92,000 jobs were eliminated leaving a net of 1000,000. This is significant because 100,000 jobs are needed monthly to absorb new work force job seekers, while 250,000 new jobs are needed monthly for a sustained period of time to achieve reductions in the unemployment rate. CNN incorrectly twisted the number to show “progress” which was untrue. This is typical for the slant given by CNN.
As to the grammer wars, I call truce.
The unemployment rate has dropped almost a full percentage point in 3 months.
Call that whatever you want. I call it progress.
And so what you call CNN’s “spin” is actually a more accurate reflection of reality compared to the denialism of Fox. And as you stated, What CNN said was not technically incorrect.
The Fox Gallup poll presentation wasn’t a spin on accurate numbers. It was a flat out lie. As a case of equivalency, your example fails.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Economy/2011/03/04/id/388395
Geoff,
I’m sure that CNN is reporting the job numbers that are reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the same yardstick that job growth was measured by under Bush, but because a Democrat is now in power Faux News likes to slice and dice those figures, which they NEVER bothered to do when Bush was in power.
You also might want to consider getting information from sources other than cable news…it’s really not very in-depth. You’ve gotta go off the grid to form solid, objective opinions based on facts.
When I hear contradictory reports I go to the direct source reports to get to the truth
Geoff.
From the bureau of labor statistics:
“Does the official unemployment rate exclude people who have stopped looking for work?
Yes; however, there are separate estimates of persons outside the labor force who want a job, including
those who have stopped looking because they believe no jobs are available (discouraged workers). In
addition, alternative measures of labor underutilization (some of which include discouraged workers and
other groups not officially counted as unemployed) are published each month in The Employment
Situation news release.”
Aside from the currently reported unemployed numbers the Christian Science Monitor reports that the class of 2010 will have 1.65 million students this commencement season.
I’m not sure if its college only or college and high school students? In any case that figure represent’s 137,000 graduates looking for employment on average per month.
What about the nearly 50 percent drop out rate in some areas such as LA?
Adding 100,000 new jobs per month is not keeping your head above water.
Geoff and Larry:
Sure the official unemployment rate excludes people who have stopped looking for work. But that’s been the case for years or decades, including three months ago when the official rate was 1% worse than it is now. So however you “slice and dice” it, things are looking up. Hard as it may be for you to explain or admit.
Vern. Things may be looking up except for those who can’t find a job and their unemployment checks have run out.
Aside from any reduction, what was the national cap on unemployment as promised by the president as he promoted the stimulus? Let’s see:
House Republican Whip Eric Cantor said, “We were promised. The president said we would keep unemployment under 8.5 percent (if the stimulus passed).”
This is called a gotcha. I need to check it out as I don’t think he said how many years it would take
One miscellaneous point on the numbers. As I mention college and high school grads looking for work there are a few seniors in the work force who are retiring which opens a few jobs. Don’t look for huge numbers today as many have chosen not to give up their jobs because their credit card and mortgage bills are so high they can’t afford to stay home without a pay check.
I might research to see what percentage of the new jobs are in the public sector vs the private sector.
As to unemployment rate it’s a meaningless figure because, as we all know, they stop counting people who no longer qualify for unemployment assistance, and they never count those who don’t qualify to begin with. It’s a very “nice” figure to use because it’s always lower than the reality.
And I must say it’s actually quite funny to see Gilbert in here defending Geoff, know what Geoff thinks about Gilbert’s little friends Tyler and Holtzman. Tells you exactly what you need to know about the moral quality of Gilbert’s “friendships.”
It’s not “meaningless”. That’s an overstatement. It’s a way (not the only way) of evaluating the employment picture. The standard figure used to measure unemployment is down almost one full percentage point in the last 3 months. Try telling people who have gained those very real jobs that it’s meaningless.
LBM. Geoff and I have a good rapport stipulating that at times we will agree to disagree. However, he has never criticized my abuse of the English languge like others in Mission Viejo when you have no rebuttal to the arguments I articulate.
If you follow Geoff’s Juice comments you will see that he has openly expressed our areas of agreement and/or disagreement. We’re OK with that arrangement but obviously it bugs you. Too bad.