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[ED NOTE: As this story continues to get dozens of hits each week, I feel compelled to note that these are not the actual “top” hospitals, but, as came to light in the comments section, the 20 hospitals with the most “web presence.” – VN]
By former OJB contributor Geoff Willis, Esq. (in 2011)
With 18 of the top 20 ranked [ed. note: top hospitals in social media presence, rendering the comparison of capitalism vs. socialism herein somewhat dicey] hospitals in the world in the new 2011 survey, the United States shows that non-socialized medicine is alive and well, thank you very much. In addition, the United States claims 21 of the top 25 hospitals in the world and 33 of the top 50. Socialist and communist countries were completely shut out of the top 25 with only France breaking into the top 50. The Canadian and Cuban hospital systems, ballyhooed by Michael Moore and the left as shining examples of medical care, failed to place a single hospital in the top 50.
NYU Langone Medical Center topped the World list followed by the University Hospitals at Michigan and Kansas. Interestingly Taiwan was the only country other than the United States to crack the top 20 placing two hospitals into that lofty ranking. We will have to wait and see if President Obama is successful in his efforts to “diversify” the location of the world’s top hospitals.
“18 of the top 20 ranked hospitals in the world [are in the U.S.].”
Therefore, “[U.S.] medicine is alive and well.”
In logic, this is called a “non sequitur.”
Please provide the missing premises please.
hmm . . . you don’t see a relationship between the United States having a predominance of the best hospitals in the world and the quality of health care in the United States? Really?
I did not deny that there is “a relationship”; but you asserted or implied that our having the best hospitals establishes or indicates that U.S. “medicine is alive and well.” It does no such thing. Recently, a friend traveled to Montana because her mother had a heart attack. She discovered that the health care in her mother’s town (and many nearby towns) is terrible. Luckily, a major (and excellent) hospital specializing in heart disease was available a hundred or so miles away. Does that fact establish that health care in Montana is “alive and well”? Obviously not.
Nor does your anecdotal story of one incident make health care in the US a problem. Not shocking that you have to travel to find appropriate health care if you live in a small town. Not shocking that not everyone can afford the “best.”
Look, it’s a simple point of logic: you asserted or implied that our having the best hospitals establishes or indicates that U.S. “medicine is alive and well.” Obviously, it does no such thing. The embrace of such fast and loose reasoning does not add to the discussion of health care in this country. That you don’t care (evidently) that your reasoning is poor suggests to me that you are not serious. Why not reason honestly?
Roy, you logic is so twisted it is very difficult to parse. Stating things as simply as I can – the US has most of the best hospitals in the world – these hospitals (and others throughout the US) provide the best health care the world has ever seen) – even in a small town in Montana your friend was able to find world class health care less than a two hour drive away. I think you have made my case for me pretty well.
Montana has 147042 square miles and a population of 989415 in 2010 which is one inhabitant per 15 square miles. That there was an “excellent hospital” within 100 miles would indicate to me that healthcare in Montana is most obviously “alive and well.” The largest city in Montana has only @ 100,000 people and the fourth only 37,000.
You take just one element of a complex web of healthcare, namely hospitals, and extrapolate that our system is “better” than socialized medicine? Weak. There are plenty of American hospitals at the END of that list as well.
Yes, we have some great hospitals in this country. But that’s just one part of the healthcare picture.
Hey, where do we stand in terms of % of personal bankruptcies brought on by healthcare crises?
When you look at a wide range of factors and realities, the playing field starts leveling quite a bit.
Anon, when you try and counter my argument by attaching a youtube link to “Lady Clown Bankruptcy” I definitionally win the argument.
That’s because you’re a closed-minded person.
And when you attack the TITLE of a YouTube clip, rather than the SUBSTANCE, the win goes back to me.
Haha, I remember when I put this clip up a couple years ago, and you (anon) were very distracted by how beautiful the girl behind Al is.
LOL. Good memory, Vern. She hasn’t aged a day since then.
” We will have to wait and see if President Obama is successful in his efforts to “diversify” the location of the world’s top hospitals.”
Do you plan on providing some FACTS to back up that allegation or were you indulging in some angry white boy humor?
Those of us in the reality based community recognize that President Obama isn’t trying to “diversify” our hospitals, he’s just trying to make them, affordable.
No, I thought my statement was pretty simple. 18 of the top 20 hospitals are in the US. Under Obamacare, that list will contain many countries and the US may drop off completely.
Really. Somehow, all of America’s hospitals will begin to suck… because of Obamacare. Mirabile dictu!
Well, I should know as I have been to the very best hospitals, this country has to offer and sadly it scares the hell out of me that they are suppose to be the best. With my own family that has struggled for 18 years to even find a diagnosis that doesn’t get added onto or changed, has us giving up on healthcare. There are some great doctors out there who are trying to do the right thing but most of them are trying to make money. Registry’s and studies are the only option and if you don’t want yourself or child in them, too bad, they don’t have to tell you everything. They cover up for one another and treat children like lab rats. An unborn child in this country is more important than one with a rare disease. The sickest is the cowards of medicine who won’t even try to give a name but will try to treat by use of life-threatning means. The hope I once had in just getting my family to the right place has disappeared and I am terrified of what is to come, Obamacare or not, if our country has the best and you don’t fit into a box or are rare, you might as well give up. Before I do on my own, I will seek alternative medicines and other countries. I am sick that hospitals can leave a child sick to the point of pure negligence but because of it’s standing, no one will speak out and fight for the wrong commited. Instead, we have lost everything and we wonder what future do our children have in a world where honestly, they just are waiting to record how they die. That is the sad truth and for those on Mediciad, well, we all know they die first. Just look at how our country treats the very ones who protect us and fight for us. VA hospitals should be the best but they aren’t and that speaks volumes. If your wealthy and have the means to hire a lawyer to protect yourself or family, you may have a small chance.
I am sorry that you are so familiar with our healthcare system.
If you are looking for a different perspective, you can read “Forbidden Medicine” by Ellen Brown. It will probably reinforce a lot of your frustrations with the system that we have, and may offer you some clues as how to track down something appropriate for your situation.
Best wishes!
Geoff,
Classic, make an accusation, provide NO FACTS to back it up and you think you’ve made your case.
Please, explain how requiring people to carry health insurance and expanding access to health insurance will hurt the quality of our top hospitals?
Let me guess, could it be; ‘those’ people having access to ‘our’ best hospitals, will surely destroy them?
Even that wouldn’t make sense, since “those” people do have Medicaid, and already ARE in “our” hospitals.
He’s just of the Republican mindset that any requirements or expenses put upon hugely profitable industries (like hospitals) will understandably cause them to fuck us all over in revenge.
Vern,
I think you are being too generous, I really believe this is a class issue.
Geoff is making the point that because some people, i.e. those that can afford it, have access to the best hospitals in the world, that means everything is great with our health care system.
He doesn’t care that 70 million americans (45million uninsured +25 million underinsured) can’t access that care, they’re poor, so they don’t matter and they don’t count.
What I did say is that people pay for food, energy and clothes, why not for health care? There is a system in place to provide health care for those in need that is paid for by others.
Because health care costs in this country are OUTRAGEOUS!
Those 70 million people WORK, yet can’t AFFORD health care.
You want a caste system; too bad little girl, you can’t have chemo for that tumor, ‘cuz your daddy is only a janitor, he should have known better than to have sex and produce a child. Sex and procreation is only for rich people.
That is what you’re REALLY advocating for Geoff.
Sick people like you seem to need others to suffer in order to make you feel superior and to reinforce your sense of self-righteousness.
There isn’t a health care system in the world that can cure that.
Since the market is the sole arbiter of price, what you view as outrageous is simply your unsubstantiated opinion and nothing more. are you advocating a system in which everyone has the right to every health measure possible regardless of cost or benefit? If not, then it all comes down to judgement as to how to allocate resources. It is easy to try and paint those like me as uncaring about the poor. Whether it is provided by the goverent or through philanthropy I would like to make sure that everyone has food to eat if they are willing to participate positively in society. I do not feel like everyone has the RIGHT to eat caviar. Similar Resource allocation decisions need to be made for health care and I believe the market should determine this while you feel lime YOU should be the sole decisionmaker of health care resource allocation.
No one is talking about “caviar” health care plans but you, Geoff, some of us believe that EVERYONE deserves good basic health care, and it shouldn’t cost 10% or more of the average middle class american’s total yearly income.
http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/hiddencosts/index.html
There was a post here a few weeks ago about a woman who went to the ER and had a few tests, the bill $16,000 dollars! My daughter went to the ER recently, the bill was over $12,000 dollars, $6,650 just to see the doctor. It’s outrageous when a couple of hours at the ER, is as much or more than a minimum wage worker makes in an entire year.
Here’s a ‘cost yardstick’ for you; when medical care causes bankruptcy or people to go without needed medical services, then health care costs are too high!
From Consumer Reports;
Health care related bankruptcy is on the rise, study says
Jun 5, 2009
Americans are increasingly at risk of financial ruin due to illness and medical expenses, according to a new study released yesterday by the American Journal of Medicine. The researchers found that illness or medical bills contributed to nearly two thirds, or 62 percent, of all bankruptcies in 2007—before the major impact of the housing collapse and current economic downturn. That’s a 50 percent increase over a similar survey in 2001 by the same researchers.
Most of the debtors are middle aged, middle class and have a college level education, and each of them has their own story. Take Donna, from Chicago (right) who told us her bankruptcy story during our Cover America Tour. Donna’s husband had already been diagnosed with a heart condition, and when she found out she had uterine cancer, their out-of-pocket costs shot up to $9,000 a year. When they fell behind on their bills, one of her doctors sued to garnish her wages, which forced her and her husband into bankruptcy. They ended up losing their house, she gave up her job at a newspaper, and they moved into their daughter’s basement until they could afford a small apartment.
As in this case, unaffordable bills directly contributed to 92 percent of medical bankruptcies, and loss of income due to illness caused 40 percent. Many people lose their heath insurance after suffering an illness or injury. A quarter of businesses that offer health insurance cancel coverage immediately when an employee suffers a disabling illness, and 25 percent more cancel coverage within a year, according to the study.
Just over three-quarters of people who suffered a bankruptcy due to illness were insured at the onset of their health issue. But the total out-of-pocket medical costs for those who had insurance when they became ill was a steep $17,749, on average. For those who didn’t have insurance, the average debt was $26,971.
These figures underscore the need for improving our health insurance system. In a recent poll, we found that 60 percent of Americans are concerned about the possibility of bankruptcy because of a medical concern.
—Kevin McCarthy, associate editor
USA! USA! USA! That’s your point, right?
Or, no. Your point is we don’t need any improvement in our system.
Nobody – not Mike Moore or anyone – has denied that the US has the highest-quality care for THOSE WHO CAN AFFORD IT. (And sometimes also the extremely indigent who qualify for Medicaid – and are sometimes forced to remain indigent to continue to qualify for Medicaid.)
We DO have millions of bankruptcies per year due to illness – and most of those people started out with (useless) private insurance until those for-profit companies wouldn’t cover any more.
And we do lose – at last count – 40,000 Americans a year who can’t afford the health care they need. Last time that the World Health Organization looked into it – about 14 years ago, before the Bush administration pressured them to STOP looking into it – we were #37 in the world factoring in everything else, not just how many fancy hospitals we have, but infant mortality, equity of access, and much more.
But still, I’m a patriotic guy and it’s still July 4 week. USA! USA! USA! #37!
You assume that everyone has the right to EVERY health care measure available regardless of the cost of that measure or the person’s ability to pay. Society has never worked that way and never should. We have scarce resources that are allocated based on the need to pay whether it is food, energy, or medicine. I cited my source, I would love to see yours that ranks the US #37.
The point of the story, as it was clearly framed in two short paragraphs, is that 48 of the top 50 hospitals in the world are from capitalist countries and only two (French) were from socialistic countries.
You wanna see a source of that ranking. It’s amazing that you hadn’t heard it. Anybody who was ever interested in America’s health system is familiar with that stat. Here’s the first one that pops up on Google. If that’s not good enough I’ll find a better one. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
Your first sentence is a typical straw man. Did I really say that, Geoff. This is a complex serious issue, not an Ayn Rand video game.
Your second paragraph. Dis-o-dis-in-genuous. That’s not the point of your story. You want this little factoid of good American hospitals to disprove the need for healthcare reform. And to discredit (what I believe to be the barely worthwhile) Obamacare.
Geoff,
Just pray neither you nor your loved ones suffer a catastrophic illness. It’s generally not until then that you realize how good or how poor your insurance coverage is. Thousands of people who think they had good insurance find themselves declaring bankruptcy. I do not doubt the USA has the finest hospitals in the world. The important question is: how many (or few) people have access to them?
And also, what does it cost to receive care in one of them?
Yes, we would all like all services to be free and unlimited for all – that kind of thinking is how we got in this economic mess in the first place.
Not free. Something we ALL chip in for. Because any of us could need it some time. That’s the idea of honest insurance. We don’t want our health insured by PROFITEERS though.
“All chip in for” – really? remember 51% pay no income tax.
Well, under a single-payer system, more people would have to pay more – but STILL less than most people are currently giving to Blue Cross, United Health, HealthNet, etc.
And even under Obamacare, much more than your put-upon 49% would be called on to pay their share.
Enough with the straw man comebacks, Jeff. I didn’t say free. Focus now! Focus!
If the Feds would let me, I’d be happy to share my medicine with those who could benefit from it. Unfortunately, the medicine I choose to use is considered a Schedule I drug according to the DEA and I would be jailed if I was to offer it to someone openly.
The medicine that I grow would be free and unlimited for all if one would be willing to take it. The costs to grow it are very minimal and is a renewable resource. On top of that, it’s a lot safer than Vicodin or Tylenol.
We need to break our dependency on the corporatists in Big Pharma. They pretty much dictate health care policy in this country today.
Medicare Part D was a big, giant gift to Big Pharma.
And the mandate in “Obamacare” is a big, giant gift to the health insurance industry.
When will people wake up and realize it ain’t the politicians creating this stuff.
When my nine year old had a case of head lice in the 4th grade (an epidemic that was going around the 4th and 5th graders at her school), we went to urgent care and was prescribed some funky shampoo that didn’t do crap when it came to killing the eggs and lice.
You know what worked in killing the annoying pests? Dousing her head with olive oil and covering it with Saran Wrap and a shower cap for 8 hours. Less than $20 for the entire treatment. Best advice I took from one of my friends who is part of the natural and alternative medicine scene.
It’s cases like this that justifies my advocacy against the poison that Big Pharma peddles to the American public. Until we remove them from the equation, our health care system will continue to be f–ked.
*They all double and triple bill patients and insurance companies. They all charge 3 digit prices for aspirin. They all charge double for reading x-rays which are never read by anyone.
The insurance companies are happy that they still take illegals and those without insurance…..so, they don’t mind the double and triple billing tricks.
#49 Wright Patterson Hospital happens to be on the grounds of Wright Patterson AFB in Dayton, OH. Only people they see there are active duty and retired military personnel and their dependents. Only reason I know that is that I once lived at WPAFB and have been to that clinic a few times in my grade school years. A DoD operation.
Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t state university hospitals get government funding?
#4 looks interesting. Buddhist Tzu Chi General Hospital in Taiwan. I wonder if they use alternative health treatments as opposed to the poisons that Big Pharma peddles in our country’s hospitals. Yes, I am into the “herbal” and “natural” medicines…if you know what I mean.
#23 Tricare Military Health System. Aren’t they run by….. the Dept of Defense??????
Where the hell is the Minnesota Spine Clinic on this list? Best spine clinic in the world as we had people from the Middle East and Asia being flown in for treatments there. These folks helped extend my football playing days well into my 30s. Speaking of Minnesota, where is the world famous Mayo Clinic.
Which begs the question…who the f— did this survey?
I’m not a fan of government run or corporatist health care (Kaiser), mostly because they are fronts for Big Pharma. One look at this list and I believe you just gave the government run health care advocates the necessary ammo that they need to make their case. Hardly any of the US hospitals I see on this list are privately run. I’m just saying.
Take your Big Pharma poison. It’s your life. I’ll settle for my “herb” garden.
*The VA Hospital in Long Beach is supposed to be good to….if you could ever get
an appointment. Right now it is only about a 4 hour wait for service – after you get the appointment – that is. Not bad considering this is all “before Obama Care”!
> *The VA Hospital in Long Beach is supposed to be good to….if you
> could ever get an appointment. Right now it is only about a 4 hour
> wait for service – after you get the appointment – that is. Not bad
> considering this is all “before Obama Care”!
If this is true, then do you suppose that the long waits for service are due to inadequate staffing levels caused by cuts made to the Veterans Health Administration budget by both Republican and Democratic party politicians?
There have been numerous studies over the years showing the VHA–the U.S. equivalent to Great Britain’s National Health Service–does a far better job providing high quality health care than the private sector does.
As for “Obama Care,” its basically a $500 billion bailout of Wall Street billionaires whose hedge funds own huge stakes in health insurance companies that were suffering declines in enrollment during the past decade.
Things will get worse under “Obama Care” because it leaves the parasitical health insurance industry intact and allows them to divert more money away from health care and into their pocket in the form of higher profits.
you silly people, the rankings measured web presence, not anything resembling quality of medicine or health care.
What kind of idiot would rank NYU, UT galvaston or U Kansas above Hopkins, Mass Gen, Washington University or UCLA?
More over, Sick Kids in Toronto is without doubt one of the top 4 kids hospitals in the world (along with Boston, CHOP and Great Ormond St.) and the U. Toronto hospital system would by any measure (outcomes, research) be top 10 as well.
The list is BS, focus on something that means something lol.
Haha, you’re right. It’s always so tempting to jump on the flawed logic Geoff uses to reach his pre-ordained conclusions, that I often forget to check out his original source material to see if he even understood or presented it right. Thanks WB.
The list was just for mere web presence. I was wondering why the Mayo Clinic in Rochester MN, the University of Minnesota Hospital and the Minnesota Spine Center in Minneapolis weren’t on that list. Now that explains everything!
Even measuring for web presence, it’s odd that Mayo Clinic/Scottsdale is on the list, and not just Mayo Clinic…or at least Mayo Clinic/Rochester (the original, and biggest). Makes me question the metrics used.
Do you even know what the study you are referencing is? It’s basically a ranking of the volume of academic journals and publications of academics working at the schools. It has nothing to do with the quality of care provided at said hospitals. It’s not even designed to be a measure of the quality of the hospitals as academic institutions, it’s more a measure of volume than quality.
Taken from the “About the Ranking” link on their website:
Objectives of the Webometrics Ranking of World’s Hospitals
The original aim of the Ranking was to promote Web publication, not to rank institutions. Supporting Open Access initiatives, electronic access to scientific publications and to other academic material are our primary targets.
As other rankings focused only on a few relevant aspects, specially research results, web indicators based ranking reflects better the whole picture, as many other activities of professors and researchers are showed by their web presence.
The Web covers not only only formal (e-journals, repositories) but also informal scholarly communication. Web publication is cheaper, maintaining the high standards of quality of peer review processes. It could also reach much larger potential audiences, offering access to scientific knowledge to researchers and institutions located in developing countries and also to third parties (economic, industrial, political or cultural stakeholders) in their own community.
The Webometrics ranking has a larger coverage than other similar rankings. The ranking is not only focused on research results but also in other indicators which may reflect better the global quality of the scholar and research institutions worldwide.
We intend to motivate both institutions and scholars to have a web presence that reflect accurately their activities. If the web performance of an institution is below the expected position according to their academic excellence, hospital authorities should reconsider their web policy, promoting substantial increases of the volume and quality of their electronic publications.
Yeah, yeah, the rest of us figured that out after a while. Thanks….
Except that list is total crap. Military health care over Massachusetts General and MD Anderson and Johns Hopkins?
you do all realize, that that study has nothing to do with quality of healthcare?! Quote from that website: The Cybermetrics Lab is publishing this Webometrics Ranking of World Hospitals from a purely academic point of view and as such it should be used. The Web indicators applied does NOT measure at all the quality of patient’s treatment and health care offered by the hospitals included. So please be aware that if you are looking for the best place to treat a health condition this ranking is not appropriated for such a search.
Please read properly next time and don’t jump to conclusions!
We know. See the Editor’s Note at the top. This article is almost a year old and has become a case study in how some people will pass along misleading information uncritically for what looks like will easily be decades. We don’t know how to stop the train now. Out of curiosity, where did you see the link?.
“We don’t know how to stop the train now.”
OLD CHARLIE STOLE THE HANDLE…
Le mot juste!
Lighten up Geoff. USA spends more per capita on health than anyone and check out its health stats. Health is one place where socialising delivers efficiency
How many of those hospitals are ran by non-profit schools, that get goverment money?
There are only a few hospitals on that list that are for-profit. By the way we have some of the best hospitals in the world, but a socialized system like in canada and other countries takes out the middle-man and replaces it with goverment insurance, and the goverment would make sure they can’t take advantage of them. Doctors are not going to quit there jobs and move over seas cause most countries have a socialized system.