As our readers can tell, we’ve got plenty of local and regional news to cover right now — but can we take just a moment to savor what’s happening to Mitt Romney right now?
He’s arguing that he had nothing to do with Bain Capital from 1999 to 2002, despite the fact that:
- he attested to the SEC that he was the sole shareholder, CEO, President, and Chairman of the Board
- he was flown out for meetings in which Bain was involved
- he attested to companies into which Bain was entering into business relationships that he was in charge (one of these being Stericycle, a company that — and I’m not kidding here — disposed of the post-abortion fetal remains)
- he said that he was still active in Bain as part of explaining why he was eligible to run for Governor of Massachusetts in 2002
- his very DENIAL of involvement in Bain during these years (of outsourcing and such) shows that he thinks that Bain’s record is politically radioactive, and
- the only way a trusted adviser could explain his being both in charge and not-in-charge of Bain for these three years is to say that in 2002 he had “retroactively resigned”
I’m trying to make myself feel even a little bit bad for Romney, but whenever I do all I can come up with is something like “I feel your Bain,” which I know is inappropriate.
And all of this doesn’t even count the refusal to produce his tax returns — 23 years of which he had already given to John McCain when he was being considered for Vice-President in 2008, so we know that they’re prepared! — and to deal with his tax havens in the Caymans, Switzerland, and the Bahamas — which when he addresses will, I presume, show that he’s taking advantage of tax shelters that are not available to any but the very wealthy because of the strenuous and effective lobbying of the very wealthy.
We have literally reached the point where people are saying that the only way for Mitt to win is not to go with a safe Portman/Pawlenty sort of appointment, but to choose someone exciting, like Sen. Jim DeMint, or Donald Trump, or Herman Cain, or Snooki, or Debra Pauly. I want to feel human sympathy for him — but, well, I’d want to see his manufacturing certificate first.
We’re having an unusual problem at OJB at the moment — one of actually having too much material to publish — so I probably shouldn’t put this story up, but I just can’t let the weekend pass without marking the occasion. Oh well, if it creates a problem, I can always go back and not have published it — retroactively.
Personally, I think he’s trying to hide two things.
One, that he’s a billionaire, his lifestyle is far to opulent for a mere 250 million and two, that he paid little or no taxes during the last ten years. In fact, I bet that the tax returns showing he paid 13-14% were a high water mark aberration.
And if he did pay little or no taxes during the last ten years, ten years by the way that this country was involved in two wars, the Democrats are going to wrap that around his neck. Now, before TJLocal comes on and starts defending him for what he’s done as being “perfectly legal”, yeah maybe, but it sure as hell is not patriotic.
When someone is running for POTUS, “perfectly legal”, ain’t good enough. And then there are all those LIES… drip…drip…drip.
I’m just afraid that Willard will be too damaged and the Republicans are going to drop him at the convention. Timing is everything.
I am all for transparency…I think everyone would be more honest in their tax filings if they were made public. As someone who is in the business, I see the crap that people try to pull and if they were made public, it would probably be a little less so.
Should the POTUS, or a candidate, be held to a higher standard? Probably so- a higher standard of knowing the rules and following them. I would say this for all congressional elects also. If they are going to vote on the rules of the game, they should be the first to follow the rules.
I am not so sure what is not patriotic about following the rules of the tax code…yes, I am presuming that he is/has been following the rules. Perhaps, you are more referring to the ethics/patriotism (i.e. “buy American”-ish) involved with investing in off-shore companies, which you may have a point- a business and patriotic point, but not a tax compliance point.
If he paid little or no income taxes during the past 10 years (along with about half of the US population by the way), his tax returns would show the details, which I would love to see. I have his 2010 tax return, which could be an outlier which is why I do think he should release more tax returns. His 2010 returns shows that he paid US federal income tax (excluding self-employment tax, essentially Soc Sec/Med, and household employee tax, usually for a nanny or housekeeper) of $2,976K on taxable income of $17,120K which is 17.3%. Obviously, most of his income is taxed at lower long-term capital gain tax rates. His AGI was $21,646K. He also paid approx $130K of foreign income tax. His author/speaking business deductions (Sch C) are virtually none compared to most other filers who have $500K- mainly composed of commissions likely paid to his booking agent.
I wish we had his 2011 tax return, but as I stated with GD/VN (can’t remember who it was), I doubt they are even done quite yet. GD/VN was saying that he would release over Memorial Day, I was saying it will be closer to the end of Summer…still does not excuse the ability to release a few prior years though. It is more of a distraction at this point, which leads me to believe more and more that the distraction is less of a liability than what is actually on the returns….we will see, maybe.
On your first point about him being a billionaire…the tax return does not show how much someone is worth. It generally shows the level of income that one has along with certain deductions. For example, if someone were to invest fully in a non-dividend paying stock and bought and held, that would not be on one’s tax return- say maybe a Berkshire Hathaway as an investment…it is not reported anywhere on the tax return, not even all of the foreign investments and activity that Berkshire has.
“If he paid little or no income taxes during the past 10 years (along with about half of the US population by the way), his tax returns would show the details, which I would love to see.”
That “half of the US population” doesn’t pay taxes because they’re barely scraping by or in other words; POOR. Big difference between that and Mitt’s millions and it shows a kind of perverted thought process to even equate the two.
No disagreement Anonster on the difference…HUGE difference between the two. One has the ability to pay a large amount of tax yet is allowed to by our system not to, while the other it would/could pose a large financial strain on them. Facts are not perverted…just the interpretation of those facts.
After re-reading my sentence, I can see the mis-interpretation which likely was on my end of starting to type something and coming back to it later. My correlation to those who don’t pay much/any tax and the possibility that Romney may have paid next to zero tax was in the details…it is entirely possible that he had sustained big losses for example thereby making him not have taxable income. Again, it is a reason for the releasing of prior tax returns…to show the details and so people like us don’t have to guess about what is going on.
*From “Glen Garry ..Glen Ross” – “The idea is to take the money out of their pockets
and put it into ours!” “It’s all about the leads…….who cares that they are stolen…..I got the leads….do you understand?”
“…show that he’s taking advantage of tax shelters that are not available to any but the very wealthy because of the strenuous and effective lobbying of the very wealthy.”
What is available to the wealthy that is not to everyone else? He follows, or is supposed to, the same rules the rest of us do. We all have the ability to invest in the same items financial vehicles as far as gov’t restrictions go. Now, it may not make sense for most of us to do so, partly because of diversification, access to funds, administrative burden (just try to figure out the foreign reporting requirements on your tax return…fun), accredited investor rules, and economies of scale, but I don’t think that it is due to lobbying and tax law.
TJLocalSA – Come on now pardner……you can’t be this far off on everything,..can you? Never heard of Institutional Investors? Never heard of the movie Wall Street? Never hear of Insider Trading where you don’t look like Martha Stewart? Hey, how about buying some Romanian currency? Nah…..”Why would Jamie Dimon spend $162 million in lobbying for less restrictive trading rules? Oh, he is just a spendthrift right?
There are nursery rhymes that are more believeable….just have your bud Romani Conti show his tax records for the last 12 years….and we will have you investigate how wonderful his many trades and transfer were. How many were truly legal?
Please don’t tell us you know the answers – unless of course you were his Corporate
Accountant.
RAW- The initial statement was about “strenuous and effective lobbying of the very wealthy” implying that the tax code (read Greg’s entire sentence and it is about his taxes and foreign investments) has certain areas that only the wealthy could benefit from these types of investments. The only one that I can think of, which I had originally indicated, was accredited investor rules (maybe that is your Institutional Investors…?) which is not a tax regulation but an investor regulation which still is similar in this context. I understand that there are many tax strategies that may only make sense to those with high income/assets, but they certainly can be used by all- usually the tax professional/legal/investment fees are prohibitive.
The other items that you identify are more market restrictions not government restrictions- or more specifically, not tax code items. They are often due to economies of scale and ability to invest large dollars. I am specifically referring to the types of investments that Romney has which has everyone up in arms thinking that he has done something wrong (maybe he has- I can’t tell, which in itself is a problem).
I am not a cheerleader for our current overall financial system, but the Tax Code treats us all the same…we all have the same rules to follow and that is my point. We can all take advantage of the same processes that Romney uses to reduce his tax rate- it may not make economic sense for a lot of us to do so, but it is available. Hopefully that makes sense.
*TJLocalSA – Yes, the tax code is very fair for everyone that makes less than $2,000 dollars a year. They don’t make much and don’t pay much. The tax code treats Mitt Romney very fairly when he buys Credit Default Swaps from his buddies, the Institutional Investors and then pays 13.9%….while the rest of us are paying 23.9% as a minimum.
What are you? An Enrolled Agent? Ever heard of laudering money….not just drug money,…..money? If not….you need a serious education. Our bet is that Romney is dirty. He hid cash in both the Cayman Islands and in Swiss Banks. He took the obvious profits from his International deals and put that into his Bermuda Holding Company. This is not brain science……this is straight “money laudering” that folks with lots of money can accomplish in a heartbeat. The Cab Driver at Orange County Airport may be street smart…….but doesn’t quite have the were-with-all to work the International Banking System with great elan.
The Code treats everyone the same…it does NOT treat all income the same. That is a major difference in our positions, in my opinion. The Code definitely treats certain types of income much differently- he and many other “investors”, as well as everyday people, certainly get beneficial treatment for long term capital gains, carried interest, and qualified dividends…but generally it treats the taxpayers the same if they are in the same circumstances. Often, there are certain transactions that it will only make sense for someone who is ultra-wealthy to take part in. The vast majority of Romney’s income is taxed at preferential tax rates (i.e. 15% rates)- the same rates that are available to everyone, but it just so happens that most don’t have that type of income.
I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you…I am not an EA, but I certainly have some other letters behind my name, not that it matters much. There are legal ways to do things and illegal ways to do things…I cannot tell if he is doing it legally or not. I generally do not bet, but again, I it certainly makes me do a double take when the negative publicity of withholding the tax returns is better than what is discovered when/if disclosed. The foreign investments are in the Cayman’s and other foreign jurisdictions is not illegal as long as they are properly disclosed and the proper US tax is paid- again, something that is available to everyone, yet usually only makes sense for the ultra wealthy to do due to costs and access issues.
Your “available to everyone” position is like me saying if I pick up a baseball bat and swing it, playing for the Angels is “available” to me.
It’s an “availability” in theory only…not in practical terms.
Rahm Emanuel has a great perspective on this situation….
To paraphrase:
” Romney gave McCain 23 years of his tax returns when he(Mitt) was being vetted for Vice President in ’08.
McCain then chose Sarah Palin.”
yah all you hypocrite dems . obama the outsourcer in chife . ever heard of g.e . jeff immelt ceo . 60 % of g.e workers are overseas and pay no income tax .. found out how much in taxes did . g.e pay = zero because they kiss obamas ass .. nov cant get here fast enough
Mitt Romney ran Bain Capital, which steered companies to outscourcing many jobs.
Barack Obama does not run GE. See the difference?
In addition, Obama has introduced the American Jobs Act, which includes trade enforcement measures, business tax breaks and worker training programs to help bring jobs BACK to America.
Can you tell us what the Republican-led House has done with that?
Get a grip on reality, Grating Juan.
OH YEAH ANON GET A CLUE ALL SUCCESFULL BUSNINESS OWE GOV FOR THEIR SUCCESS . THEY DIDNT DO IT ON THEIR OWN HAAAAA WHAT A TOTAL OUT OF TOUCH THIS GUY IS .. HE IS ANTI BUSNINESS , SHARE THE WEALTH CRAP . GET A GRIP OH CLUELESS ANNON .
I’ve decided to change any “ALL-CAPS” comment of yours to a smaller font. So far, it’s just one size smaller.
Yeah, good call. I hope GREAT BUT SHRINKING JUAN doesn’t cause himself to shrink any further. (Shades of Rod Steiger’s Patton-esque character in Mars Attacks and his sad demise.)
Diamond is punishing Little Juan because he’s a capitalist.
TJLocalSA – Based on your logic……taking heroin is just like prescription drugs…and as long as their are prescription drugs……you can take anything you want – cause it must be legal. Let’s just cut to the chase: What about the word “hide” eludes you?
Would you admit that if Mitt – hid, occluded, did not report, missed, over looked or simply failed to report income and placed it in off shore interest bearing accounts or better yet…took those profits and purchased Specialty Investment Vehicles that were or are difficult or impossible to trace…….perhaps, just perhaps there is a slight, ever so slight chance of wrong doing? You won’t answer of course, because you only answer something that has no relation to the facts or the truth.
But then…..that is just our opinion. So, you kid your friends and we will kid ours!
I don’t follow your heroin example, but that really is no surprise.
The thing that eludes me about the word “hide” in this context is that it has not been shown that Romney is hiding assets and escaping proper US taxation- it simply has not been shown to my knowledge. Very possibly because he is not presenting his past tax returns…which I wish he present them so people like me who truly enjoy looking at tax returns can chew on it a bit. The facts and truth have yet to come to light…we are all just speculating. I do prefer to deal in facts and truth- I presume that most people do also although I guess it may not be as fun to do so. If he is hiding assets from the US Treasury Dept/FinCen and not properly complying with the US tax laws, shame on him. I, as a tax professional, have no problem telling someone that they are wrong and need to clean up their act- I do it quite often, although it is not fun to do. I also have no problem in helping people comply with the tax laws while structuring legitimate business transactions to be tax advantageous.
I certainly am perfectly fine to admit that “if Mitt- hid, occluded, did not report, missed, over looked or simply failed to report income and placed it in off shore interest bearing accounts or better yet…took those profits and purchased Specialty Investment Vehicles that were or are difficult or impossible to trace that there is” in deed a chance of wrong doing. Yes, a pure and simple answer to your question- I believe that I have answered pretty much every question you have thrown to me.
I am definitely open to discussing whether it is appropriate to allow certain items in the tax code or not (i.e. off-shoring of income or preferential investment income tax rates are two biggies in relation to Romeny’s taxes), but if it is shown that Romney or any other candidate is following the tax laws, I can’t really fault them for doing so even if we disagree with the choices that they made. The fault lies in those who made the rules and not those who follow them.
By the way Winships, that little “Reply” button to the upper right of this post allows you to reply to this post instead of starting a new string with each posting. I know that you are much more of a veteran to OJB than I and I respect your experience but it does not seem that you have figured that button out yet which seems to make it easier to follow a thread string…go ahead and tell me why you don’t use it as I am sure there is a perfectly fine reason which could enlighten us all…as always, thanks for the education.
TJLocalSA – You are such a kidder. Call Mitt and tell him how many clicks you put in on his campaign today! If you get paid by the character….you will be rich by November! No, pal…..your bud Mitt in on the ropes and all the smokescreens in the world cannot save him. As we used to say: Where is the reg? The IRS Tax Regulation in this case, relative to “Off Shore Banking Rules for Corporations”. Obviously, you need glasses cause you can’t see much – even the history of Swiss banking. Mitt, really missed his chance by doing business with the Caymans, when the Turk & Caicos were giving far better deals.
Since you have identified yourself as our resident IRS EXPERT tax advisor……(Not an Enrolled Agent) that is. Which means: you have identified yourself as a quasi-wanna-be, trying to look like, you know – John Moorlach should be so lucky – H & R Block investor in the future guy – without the client base! Where is the Reg? Call your Mitt and ask him and his other pals at Bain Capital how you can help – more than your are! Undoubtedly, they will come up with some more stinky piles of burning leaves for you to spread around the neighborhood – which have nothing to do with his poor choices and/or very bad deeds. Meanwhile, your dear friend Mitt is slowly twisting in the wind. And rightly so!
That’s our REPLY – Bucko! New Cheese!
I see that you still have not found that “Reply” button to the upper right hand corner of the response, but I will give you a pass on it due to your longevity here.
I appreciate the personal attacks as it adds a lot to the conversation. If it makes you feel better about yourself, so be it. Not that it is any of your business, but I have a healthy client base and I am happy to say that our firm is hiring more and more people, which I and the others partners are certainly happy about- even in this economy. Not that it matters much but since you bring it up, I will address it. I don’t believe I have ever expressed that I am the IRS EXPERT- I do practice in this area every working day as a CPA and think about it during the other days. I have been around long enough to know that there are others who know much more about tax law than I do, but my knowledge and relationships with clients certainly is helpful in what I do.
I am not a huge fan of Romney…he has a lot of problems and he definitely is not my “bud”. Funny, on another post a while back someone called Clinton my “pal” or something similar- maybe my view points are varied, which I am OK with. I personally lean much more towards Libertarian viewpoints. I would be saying the same thing about Obama, Clinton, Paul, etc…the names are interchangeable but the tax implications are not.
Remember, Regulations are the IRS’ interpretation of the Internal Revenue Code…in my world, yes I do court work and some pretty high end controversy work including some international strategies, it is nice to have a Reg on our side, but I am fine having the Code on my side when the Regs are not. The Code is the law, the Regs is the gov’t interpretation of the law. One thing that I have learned, is that once you know the facts, one can determine a position on those facts…I wish we knew the facts instead of just speculating.
I really need to find a billing code for my time on OJB…
Sometime the “reply” button doesn’t seem to work properly. That may be a glitch, or it may be because the indentation between a reply and a new top-level comment is so small that people don’t realize that they aren’t replying. (I don’t know how to increase the indentation, either.) I know of other local blogs that have the same problem.
I haven’t been following your dispute with Ronandanna — but it seems like you’re both having your say well enough, so I’m assuming that things are OK.
Bill your time to Scott Baugh. It might work!
Now THAT’s an insult – what do TJ’s common-sense, well-informed insights on tax policy (not unlike your own common-sense, well-informed insights into the law) have to do with the born-agagin labor-bashing lobbyist dictator of the OC GOP?
(I just want to see if Baugh will accidentally pay it!)
Well then I’m billing him too. I’m a good, registered Republican, and I work more on this blog than TJ!
“I really need to find a billing code for my time on OJB…” TJLocalSA
Well, we hope you don’t plan on being paid by the click rather than the quality of your efforts! Your horse is so high….we can’t quite see your tiny head in the clouds! But again…that’s just our opinion…Mr. Reply button!
I can only wish to get paid for this at all…although, it does allow me be a well rounded person which in turn helps me in more than one way. Just to be clear- I am not an operative for any campaign, I have never really been involved in any political movements, I have been invited to a few local political gatherings in the neighborhood but unfortunately have not been able to attend due to family commitments (all have been for Democratic candidates), it is likely that I have more Democratic connections than Republican, I have no problem voting for the best candidate despite what letter is behind their name, I wish that our POTUS vote meant something in CA, I could keep going (as evidenced by prior ramblings) but I likely already lost you in the clouds…
Well, for the record, I appreciate the presence of both you and your current adversary on the site.
TJLocalSA – You are a sterling example of what is wrong with our society. People actually invite you to things? Come on now….don’t you tell them how erudite your blog entries are and give them the opportunity to actually read the tripe you project on society?
There is one word tht we would suggest you look up… and it is not equivocating! Try again….and it isn’t contemplating either.
Thanks for the beat down RAW, hopefully it once again can help you feel good about your own life. Yes, occasionally people invite me to things…crazy, I know, although half the time I think it is because they like my better half. No, I really don’t let them know about these blog entries, but I am sure that you do…
TJLocalSA – The truth is so cool…….glad you get it and have sensibilities! That is refreshing!
*The questioning of HSBC yesterday revealed by Senator Levin that $60 Trillion…yes,
Trillion folks was sent by un-audited wire transfer through HSBC banks last year. Now, JP Morgan Chase has been caught pulling an Enron on our Electricity Rates….by market manipulation……. Pretty soon, you get the idea…that the whole system is beyond repair.
*Forgot to mention the 2000 HSBC Bearer Bond Accounts which are literally “untraceable”. How many of those in the Caymans? All. How many in the Bahamas and Bermuda? Start counting. How many in Swiss Bank Vaults? Just keep
counting…….the low number for just HSBC is $60 Trillion dollars….in unaudited wire transfers…but then, we said that.
*The Romney Tax Returns – 500 pages…..now called …..”The Dead Sea Scrolls”