This should be the federal law regarding voter ID:
(1) Pollworkers should have access to computerized voter registration files.
(2) If the state requires voter photo ID, these files should contain a digital copy of whatever voter photo ID the state requires.
(3) Voters may, but need not, bring their own copy of their photo voter ID.
(4) If the identity of a voter is challenged, refer to the photo on the computer file to verify identity.
(5) If the voter does not have ID, there should be provisions for a poll worker to take a photo of them /right then and there/ with a digital camera and upload it to a database (separate from the vote count) indicating their identity; this will subsequently serve as their voter ID for future elections. There should be no cost for this service and it may be that we’d want a physical card to be mailed to the voter subsequently.
(6) If there is any serious concern about a given voter’s identity, /maybe/ the voter could be required to vote by a provisional ballot until their identity is confirmed after the election, but this should not be easy (and perhaps the loser in the challenge pays the cost.)
(7) If a state does not have a copy of the photo voter ID on file, federal law should preclude its ability to deny anyone the ability to vote.
Graphic is borrowed from this web site -- http://www.alan.com/2012/07/19/study-shows-voter-id-law-will-keep-millions-mostly-democats-from-the-polls/ -- which judging from their article (which is worth reading) I suspect will not mind.
Voter ID is absolutely a kind of “poll tax,” barred by the 24th Amendment, although its cost to prospective voters is in (often undue) time and effort as well as in money.
It is absolutely unnecessary to have individual voters procure such an ID before the election or have it with them at the polls. If the state wants to impose the requirement, the state can keep the files online. We have this thing called the Internet now. Thumb drives with photo voter ID for all voters in a precinct could be made available to poll workers as well in the event of an Internet outage.
The argument for voter ID does not sound stupid to voters; even if fraud is rare (or almost unheard of) here, it’s theoretically possible. So we don’t need to fight it head on. We just have to say that if a state wants to require photo ID of voters, it has to have its own copy of that photo ID on-hand so that voters are not denied the right to vote if they cannot get to a place that issues ID or if their ID is lost or stolen. Otherwise, it’s a poll tax.
Congress could pass a law with this requirement this year. If states want to enforce their voter ID laws this year, they had better get cracking and compile those databases. The states can have their laws so long as they accept the (fairly minimal) commensurate burdens.
I think that we’ll find, though, that when if and when voter photo ID is /no longer/ a useful way to prevent disfavored people from voting, its proponents may lose interest in demanding it. What would be the point then — good government or something?
If states wouldn’t agree to these sorts of requirements, then their motives are suspect and they should not be able to enforce their voter ID laws. Problem solved.
In Orange County, at the polls, the voter’s self-identify themselves and are then verified by a poll worker.
If there is a problem or question, the voter votes provisionally and the ROV office does extra checks before that ballot can be counted.
If there are questions of fraud in Los Angeles county, Calif. Or Cook country Ill. (Chicago). The ROV officials at those locations could have bought the same electronic voting booth we have in here. Both of those area sent ROV staff to Santa Ana to watch how the E-slates worked when they first came out.
Electronic voting machines create their own problems, but that’s a separate issue.
I have always thought that it would be so very easy for someone to walk in right when the polls open before a lot of voters arrive and impersonate a voter. Essentially, if someone knows my name and address, they can vote as me before I arrive. Then, that creates a huge problem if the real voter actually shows up but some may never know if the actual voter never even shows up. Something should be done it seems especially with such a low voter turn out.
I actually had a personal experience this year…we actually received a voter book at our home address from someone who obviously does not live with us. It very easily could have been fraud. When I called the voter registrars office, they essentially just said “write no longer lives here” on the booklet and send it back. Well, that would be great but the person never has lived here. It was either fraud or a key punch error. The voter registrar’s office really was not concerned at all about it…I was so tempted to walk into the voting station and see if the person was still on the rolls but I know that would wrong and would cause problems.
I’ve voted in so many states that I forget how it works here, but as I recall that they’d also have to be able to approximate your signature on the fly, right? (I’ve voted absentee for a while, so I don’t remember.)
It doesn’t seem to happen often. To do it more than a trifling amount, you’d need a conspiracy, and in politics factions form and degrade quickly enough that such a conspiracy would be unlikely to preserve secrecy for long. That you don’t see more such disclosures suggests to me that there’s not much to disclose.
Even so — if you do want voter ID, this is how to do it. Put the onus on the state.
The volunteers who take my name, don’t know what my signature looks like, so unless the “real” voter shows up, they would never ever know. We do not know how often it happens as it is very difficult to prove…maybe you know how to prove it does not happen- I don’t know how. I also don’t know that it does happen either- just the possibility for it to happen. With such poor voter turn out in most elections, it certainly can happen.
The voter booklet items makes me think about what one has to provide in order to even vote in the county…the person never has lived here and I have no idea who it is.
I am totally fine with Voter ID…the state has a majority of our information already via drivers licenses. Those who don’t have DL’s it seems that the gov’t certainly can develop a system (i.e. like you have outlined above) and the ballot place certainly can be used. Question: If I show up at the polling place and the state does not have any info on me, how do they know I am eligible to vote and my residency status?
A couple elections ago we had tried out a new system called “Electronic polling books” these small computers had every voter in the county and were updated constantly with who has voted. They were not connected to the JBC so they had nothing to do with counting and storing the votes.
Over the last ten years all of the questionable votes have been confined to the Vote By Mail ballots, in my opinion the weakest link.
Even with all the recounts over the years, not one of the VVAT printers needed to be opened to verify a E-slate electronic count.
“If I show up at the polling place and the state does not have any
info on me, how do they know I am eligible to vote and my residency
status?” TJLocalSA
No problem, that is what the provisional ballots are for, to weed out the problems. You are allowed to vote, but your vote is only counted if your information proves you are a qualified voter.
My question was more in reference to #5 above…if they don’t know who I am and now they take a picture that will serve as my future ID, how do they know that I am qualified to vote. Not sure if that makes sense. Since it has been so long since I have registered to vote, I cannot even remember what I had to do to register. I guess it comes down to what keep the fraud down? Just the honesty of all of us people?
How do you know that a vote is “good” upon a recount if someone shows up and signs someone else’s name and votes as them? I just think that it is so very open to fraud when you don’t have to verify who you are.
Vote by mail I would also think is open to a lot of fraud also…spouses voting for each other, someone else stealing the ballot and sending in, etc…
If Greg’s recommendations works to verify the identity of voters, then we should definitely consider it…I just don’t understand it.
“I just think that it is so very open to fraud when you don’t have to verify who you are.” TJLocalSA
But you do have to verify who you are, just not with a CDL.
The reason you think it is easy to vote someone else’s ballot is because you do not know about all the checks and balance involved.
The ROV does send in undercover people to check to make sure the policy and procedures are followed besides the roving supervisors. And candidates do send in their own poll watches to keep an eye on things too.
You are correct that I don’t know about all of the checks and balances…however, what prevents someone from walking into the polling place and impersonating me? If they know my polling place, my name, and my address it seems like they can do it no problem.
“however, what prevents someone from walking into the polling place and impersonating me?” TJLocalSA
The checks and balances would stop someone from impersonating you.
Come Nov. I can give you a tour of a precinct and how it operates, most likely all your question would not be answered, but you would have a better understanding of the 2nd line of defense against voter fraud.
So are you saying that if someone went in and voted as me and I did not come in later to vote and notify them of the wrong doing that it would still get caught?
Maybe the erroneous voters guide I received from someone who was not at our address is part of that checks and balance…making sure I would not vote twice and that I would call the error in and return it.
Your precinct is in your neighborhood, your friends and neighbor know you, the boardmembers and clerks know you, and if someone said that they were you, no one stand up and say “I know TJLocalSA sir and you are no TJLocalSA.
Ha!
Sir, I know TJLocalSA.
Sir, I blog with TJLocal SA.
Sir, TJLocalSA is a friend of mine.
Sir, You are no TJLocalSA!
(The late lamented Lloyd Bentsen – also coiner of the term “astroturf” – to Dan Quayle, 1988.)
Not likely to happen…the people at the polling place have no idea who I am. I also have no idea who they are. People who live two doors down from me likely would not know who I am…maybe they could identify someone as “not me” but once you would get away from 3 doors of my house, they would not know me. Yes, I probably should get out more with the neighbors. I have maybe one set of friends in the neighborhood who could actually put my face and name together. If they would actually know me, they are stalkers!
If that is our protection, that is a pretty weak protection IMO. Maybe one that would work occasionally but not one
As Gov. Tom Corbett repeatedly cited that context during the debate over the voter ID law, stating that a number of election precincts in Philadelphia that are reliably Democratic have produced results which showed that more than 100 percent of registered voters cast ballots in some years in districts where turnout is normally low. It is true that these areas are also largely African-American, but that does not make such results more explicable or less suspicious.
Does anyone really believe Philadelphia is the only place in America where there is a reasonable suspicion of fraud? The Supreme Court doesn’t. In 2008, it upheld an Indiana law requiring voter ID saying that it posed no undue burden on voters. And in his majority opinion, Justice John Paul Stevens wrote that “not only is the risk of voter fraud real but…it could affect the outcome of a close election.”
Sure it can, if the local church makes sure that everyone goes to the polls.
I’d be happy to argue this with you on the merits, but not over politically motivated anecdotes.
On the merits: how do ensure that someone does not walk into the polls and vote as me, my neighbor, or someone across town that I don’t even know who they are when they actually are not that person at all?
I haven’t been following this whole discussion, but my quick answer to that is – it hardly ever happens. It would get caught, and there would be records of it happening if it did. And the records of it happening are as rare as lightning strikes.
I mean, what kind of crazy person risks jail in order to give one or two more votes to their favored candidate? That is just a Republican bugaboo and excuse to make it harder for folks to vote.
I don’t care if it is R, D, L, or I…someone can walk into a local polling place and vote as anyone that they know the name, address, and location of the polling place. Simple.
We don’t know that it hardly ever happens. There may be a very low occurrence of it happening and getting caught but we don’t know about those who don’t get caught.
At a minimum, I think that those who are registered should at least be able to indicate “see ID” on their personal account and the polling volunteer would then see my ID, at my own request…it would make me feel better about my own vote but not about my neighbors.
Well, YOU may not care if it’s R, D, L, or I … but it IS only Republicans who want to make it harder to vote. Because they’ve noticed that doing so depresses the other side more than theirs. I imagine that’s mentioned in Greg’s article which I haven’t had a chance to read yet…
Ha, well, I have no problem with that last idea.
Because I vote absentee, I don’t remember the in-person voting procedures well. I thought that there’s a handwriting match procedure.
Vern
(7) If a state does not have a copy of the photo voter ID on file, federal law should preclude its ability to deny anyone the ability to vote.
……. There is already a federal law, that is why you do not need a CDL or national ID caed to vote.
Greg, “handwriting match procedure.” is done with vote by mail. At the polls the voter self ID’s themselves.
You can test the system yourself by mailing off your ballot and then on voting day, go into your polling place and try to vote and see what happens.
I have voted D/I occasionally (more often L and R, as I am sure is no secret) and have to imagine that I would want to make sure that no one else could vote as me even if I voted D on everything. I don’t want to make it harder to vote- I believe, right or wrong, that most (not all of course) R’s want the same. I just want to make it more secure to vote and ensure the right people are entitled to vote. That may result in a harder voting process.
I fly and have to go through an interrogation occasionally…something I put up with. Voting is much more important and an inherent right, so there should be a middle ground. Overall, I like Greg’s idea in that we should put the burden on the government…let’s do it. I still don’t understand the details, but that is fine. It seems to me that the big thing is that it is on the gov’t to get it done and using the resources already available.
Hopefully, you can understand my points at least. Personally, I would rather require everyone to vote if there was a way to do it. Voter turn out is so poor in our country when so many have fought so hard to get that right to vote.
I just pulled a Winship w/o using the reply button…above post was in response to Vern’s post a few minutes ago.
I’m with you on requiring everyone to vote.
See there is some common ground!
I think that there usually is some common ground on any issue if you are rational and choose to acknowledge it.
The political problem we are having in this country right now is that one party has been unwilling to admit to the commonality and has pursued the tactic of working in lockstep to be against anything proffered by the opposition. We now have the party of no, and the other party that finally woke up to that reality.
Yeah I agree…there normally is common ground for rational people. When one party is solely blaming the other though, that really does not add much to finding common ground.
*Amazing the rash of stupidity on this blog. Who acted as a Poll Worker in the recent election cycle? No you guys evidently. We did.
How does it work? Easy: You want up to Poll worker ONE. Hi, my Name is Bob Smith and I want to vote. Great Bob, what is your address? 123 Hometown Street. OK Bob,let’s make sure you are in the correct precinct – your name is not on the list. You walk over to a Precinct Map…find the guys address…there Bob….you seem to be trying to vote in the wrong Precinct If the person is in the correct precinct….a tag is written by Precinct Worker ONE….that gives a gird number and a Party Affiliation. That is handed to Precinct worker TWO….after the person signs in both his name and address on the first Register. The voter then goes to Station Two or the Street Index and Ballot Clerks…which verify the address and creat an electronic access code that the person uses to vote. Any poll worker CAN challenge any voter and ask that the person votes Provisional. All Roster Entries and all Provisional Ballot signatures are looked at by Registrar of Voter Administrator to verify that the signatures match. The two most important aspects are the so many voters are VBM (Vote by Mail)…which are listed in the Voter Register. If someone shows up and has VBM by their name….and they want to vote at the polling place and do not surrender a mail in ballot. They must vote Provisional. Many voters arrive at the Polls and some maybe new voters that have not given proper ID or Proof of Residence…..usually a Drivers License or State ID – a water bill, a gas bill, a electricity bill – which is required to vote without facing an issue. You are not required to show your ID in the current election or ones to come because your address has been cross referenced with the DMV.
The biggest issue of all – is matching your signature. We are not saying that people
cannot fool with the system….however, the OC ROV has done an outstanding job of creating one of the only Electronic Voting Systems around that both works and has a high degree of security.
Instead of “Hand Jiving around!” – Get busy and volunteer to the ROV for ONE election, so you know what the heck is going on!
Stupidity does kill…..you know?
you said it all.
non-voters don’t know about the system cause all they do is stay at home and complain.