“Laguna Beach, long a gay-friendly community, followed Los Angeles’ lead as one of the first cities to reject a ballot measure that would ban same-sex marriage,” according to the L.A. Times.
What about the City of Santa Ana? Our City Council is almost majority Democrat. There is only one Republican on our City Council – lame Clowncilman Carlos Bustamante. Why hasn’t Mayor Miguel Pulido asked his fellow Clowncil Members to do what Laguna Beach just did?
Could it be that Pulido is staying away from this issue because his buddy Bustamante won’t support it? And what about Clowncilman David Benavides? He graduated from Biola University and used to be a minister. Perhaps Benavides is not too happy about gay marriage?
Why isn’t mayoral candidate Michele Martinez, who is supposed to be a progressive, making a big stink about this? Shouldn’t she be taking the lead on uniting the Clowncil against Prop. 8? Doesn’t she believe in allowing gay marriage?
Back to Pulido – how does he expect to garner the endorsement of his party, the DPOC, if he can’t or won’t stand up for gay civil rights?
Kudos to the Laguna Beach City Council. Too bad the Democrats on the Santa Ana City Clowncil – and their GOP ally Bustamante, can’t get their act together with regard to gay civil rights.
Art: As I posted before, Benapuppet’s church, Newsong in Irvine, is on the record as stating homosexuality is a sin.
I was the one who originally posted the above link–maybe convenient lies did as well, too…
Art:
Maybe it’s because:
a) This isn’t a “civil rights” issue, no matter how much it is made out to be one
b) It’s a political loser, unless Santa Ana has suddenly become a hotbed of gay activism.
Gustavo:
I read what you linked to, but Newsong doesn’t teach that being homosexual is a sin:
“In other words, sex in any form outside of the context of a monogamous, heterosexual marriage is sin. Yes, this includes homosexuality. We believe that the act of engaging in sexual relations with someone of the same sex is sin. For many Christians, the discussion stops right here. But at Newsong, we are well aware that homosexuality is a far more complex issue than simply a sexual preference. There are issues of lack of male-affirmation, spiritual hunger, abuse, narcissism, and relational idolatry that are often not discussed. Also, Newsong does not regard homosexual sin as worse off than any other sins such as lying, envy, pride, or judging others.”
“homosexuality is a sin”
So is gossiping and backbiting.
As long as we’re mentioning the position of churches rather than individuals, all you Catholics out there are apparently tainted by the position of your church as well.
Real men don’t throw stones in glass houses.
#4,
Huh? Are you lamely trying to defend Benapuppet? There is no defense! The guy is a Democrat. I hear he is trying to convince the Planned Parenthood of Orange County to give campaign money to his amigito Roman Reyna, who is running for the SAUSD school board. But Reyna is just like Rosie Avila on social issues! What a mistake that would be for Planned Parenthood!
BTW, Benapuppet wants to run for Jose Solorio’s Assembly seat when Solorio terms out. Pay attention progressives – Benapuppet is not someone you should be supporting, for anything!
Art,
I suppose when the rabble brought the adulteress before Jesus and He said “Let you who is without sin cast the first stone”, you would have been one of those shouting “Huh? Are you lamely trying to defend this woman?”
Art,
Maybe you should let “political guru” Chris Prevatt know about David. The Teamster bashing Prevatt bragged about how he was trying to get David to run for the First District BOS seat.
I wonder if he is aware of the fact that David is active in a church that frowns upon Prevatt’s lifestyle?
#6,
So Benapuppet reminds you of an adulturous woman? That’s just weird.
Art,
Nope. It’s that you remind me of a self-righteous pharisee.
Sean, Benavides is no longer active at Newsong Church. That has been true ever since he’s been in real estate, which is several years now.
#9,
So Benapuppet gave up God for real estate – and then the real estate market tanked? It sounds like God is mad at David! LOL…
Matt, I suggest you reread the excerpt you posted–especially the part where Newsong refers to “homosexual sin”–and then answer what I posed to you over at Navel Gazing: do you still consider Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr., the man who doesn’t look down too much on societies that would stone homosexuals and adulterers, a “stellar conservative”?
Anon 9: If Benavides isn’t active at Newsong anymore, as you claim, might want to tell them to update their website.
Art,
The fact that neither you nor Sean even knew that Benavides no longer is active at Newsong just goes to show how suspect your positions often are. To say they are built on shifting sand would be the understatement of the century.
And since when does leaving a particular church mean that one has “given up God”? Really Art, you are utterly shameless.
See gossip comment above.
Gustavo,
You’re right…Newsong SHOULD update their website. I’ll let them know.
Gustavo:
So would the phrase “human sin” mean that being human is a sin?
It’s crystal clear from the site that you linked to that Newsong considers homosexual sex to be sinful, not homosexuality itself.
As for that partial Ahmanson quote you used, I’d like to read the interview itself, not just your partial excerpt.
#12,
So what homophobic church does Benapuppet go to now?
“So what homophobic church does Benapuppet go to now?”
You’re the one who likes to speculate and gossip…you tell us.
#12,
Since you are acting as David’s unofficial spokesperson perhaps you’d like to share his position on gay marriage and a woman’s right to choose.
He went to Biola and has been associated with a church that promotes bigotry. Birds of a feather usually flock together. Let’s not forget Rosie Avila’s ties to Biola.
Has David chosen to ditch the narrow minded bigotry of those institutions?
Sean,
Show me where I acted as Benavides’ “unofficial spokesperson”. All I did was refute the inaccuracies of you and Art, as well as the notion that where one went to school or church means that one believes every position those institutions take. Like I said, if that were true, all Catholics are tainted by that church’s position on homosexuality. I never once stated anything even remotely like “Benavides believes that….”
I’ll leave that fact-finding mission to you, Art and his ever-reliable parajitos.
a church that promotes bigotry
wow Sean, take a step back and a deep breath.
#18,
If you know David well enough to know where he goes to church you must surely know where he stands on certain issues.
Please do share.
Sean, if I thought you and Art had open minds, I would.
But I don’t.
Cook,
Are you saying that these churches aren’t pushing an agenda of bigotry?
I wouldn’t be shocked if you believe this, after all you think that the war in Iraq has been good and all the deaths worth it because it has given jobs to young folks and helped the profits of the military industrial complex.
#21,
Benapuppet can prove that he has changed by agendizing a formal City Council motion to express opposition to Prop. 8.
I won’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen!
Art,
What do you mean “Benapuppet can prove he has changed…”
LOL. You don’t even know his position to begin with!
#21,
You’re so right. Art and I aren’t as open-minded as the bigots at Biola or Newsong.
We just believe that two people in love should be allowed to marry no matter what gender they are. How closed minded.
#24,
We will know where Benapuppet stands if he fails to publicly oppose Prop. 8. That goes for the rest of the Clowncil too!
“We will know where Benapuppet stands if he fails to publicly oppose Prop. 8. That goes for the rest of the Clowncil too!”
Did you hear that Sean? That goes for the rest of the Council too! LOL.
Matt, you crack me up. You don’t trust me? You think I’m going to spin my beliefs as truths, like you do? Here’s your extended excerpt, from a 2004 Register article:
A prolific writer, Rushdoony advocated ideas seen as extreme by many. “The Institutes of Biblical Law” is the one most often singled out for criticism and censure. In it, Rushdoony talks of the need to return to biblical law, using such examples as the death penalty by stoning for homosexuals and adulterers.
Howard Ahmanson first read Rushdoony in the 1970s, eventually served on the board of his foundation’s board and donated more than $700,000, he says.
In a 1985 interview with the Register, Ahmanson described his goal as “total integration of biblical law into our lives,” a statement that has clung to him ever since.
To those like Clarkson who believe in a stout wall between church and state, Rushdoony’s ideas and the Ahmansons’ cash stand as a threat to democracy: If biblical law is the law of the land, what place is there for people with other beliefs?
“It was his money that made it possible for Rushdoony to do as much as he did in his lifetime,” Clarkson said. “Theocracy is the antithesis of democracy.”
The Ahmansons say their views are misunderstood.
They do not want a theocracy to replace democracy in the United States, they say. And they don’t want to make all Ten Commandments or all the biblical “case laws” the law of the land.
Yet at times, the way they explain their views — the fine lines they draw, the hypotheticals they consider — can leave questions about just where they stand.
For instance, Roberta Ahmanson says she believes the story about Jesus stopping a mob from stoning an adulterous woman changed the Bible’s take on punishment from death to forgiveness for such acts as adultery.
Howard Ahmanson says he also doesn’t think stoning is the answer, yet he stops just short of condemning the idea.
“I think what upsets people is that Rushdoony seemed to think — and I’m not sure about this — that a godly society would stone people for the same thing that people in ancient Israel were stoned,” he said. “I no longer consider that essential.
“It would still be a little hard to say that if one stumbled on a country that was doing that, that it is inherently immoral, to stone people for these things,” Ahmanson said. “But I don’t think it’s at all a necessity.”
Later on in this same article (one of a five-part series), Ahmanson described homosexuality as an “an illness akin to alcoholism, which treatment might cure,” just like the Newsong people.
So again, Matt: do you still think Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr. is a “stellar conservative”?
Sean,
I didn’t mean you and Art are close minded on this particular issue.
I mean you’re close minded when it comes to acknowledging you were wrong about someone…or that you were even clueless about a particular fact to begin with.
Nothing, absolutely nothing I could say about Benavides will change your mind….the closed one I was referring to.
Wow, I would hope the council members are working on the other issues that are directly affecting Santa Ana…shootings, deteriorating roads, better housing….the school district.
#27,
As far as I know none of the others on the council have associations with bigoted groups like Biola University or Newsong. As I said birds of a feather tend to flock together.
#30,
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Santa Ana City Clowncil is failing in all those areas too.
Sean,
Are any of the other Council Members devout Catholics? Is the Catholic church, given it’s stance on homosexuality and the right of a woman to choose, a bigoted group as well? And if so, does that make any devout Catholic a bigot?
#33 –
I’ll bite on that one. The answer to your question is a big YES! Yes it does. I’m sick of people hiding behind religion as an excuse for ignorance and discrimination.
SMS
SMS,
Well I’ll give you credit for being consistent.
That said, I don’t agree with the proposition that because one attended a particular school or church, then that means one agrees with everything that school or church teaches. I actually attended Newsong church for about 4 years. I never, ever, ever heard the issue of homosexuality spoken of from the pulpit. What I did hear a lot about was social justice, care for the poor, and racial reconciliation. The first Sunday I attended there was an African American woman preaching…in a predominantly Asian congregation…in Irvine!
So much for being bigoted.
But you see, Art and Sean would rather speak from a place of ignorance. I doubt they’ve ever set foot in Newsong Church. They literally have no idea what Newsong Church is REALLY about.
On top of all that, the notion that any one church would have every issue and stance “wired” is ludicrous.
You don’t trust me?
Well, you said Newsong teaches that homosexuality is a sin, and linked to a Newsong statement you said supported your claim, when in fact it did not.
You think I’m going to spin my beliefs as truths, like you do?
I would never dream of emulating your style.
As for the longer quotation (thank you) I think Ahmanson is saying is pretty clear in saying he doesn’t support stoning homosexuals.
He’s talking about a theoretical country like ancient Israel, where stoning adulterers, for example, was considered appropriate moral punishment; and he’s saying it would be hard for us to burst in an say what they’re doing is inherently immoral, at least according to their lights.
That’s not to say it isn’t immoral. A rough analogy would be like applying Christian morality to New Guinea cannibals who’ve never been exposed to civilization. Cannibalism is wrong and to be condemned, but since those cannibals themselves don’t know any better, are they acting immorally?
#33,
With the exception of Carlos and David, I know where the other members of the council stand and they do not support the bigoted agenda of Biola and Newsong.
Carlos is a Republican and I would not be surprised if he toed the party’s bigoted line. David is a Democrat and has ties to Biola and Newsong. So there may be some contridiction going on there.
If you know where he stands please let us know. Otherwise, since he is silent on the issue, I will be left to believe that he is more in line with another local elected with ties to Biola, Rosie Avila,
Also, I’d point you to the NewSong “Vision and Values” web page…
http://www.newsong.net/about/vision_table.php
Sean,
Thanks for not answering the questions about Catholicism.
#33 –
A ‘devout‘ Catholic, as you put it, would believe exactly as his/her church teaches. The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is a sin. Basic transitive property there. That’s not bigotry, it’s logic.
SMS
SMS,
Right, but does that mean that the Catholic Church is a bigoted institution?
You’ll note that I expressed these thoughts in the form of QUESTIONS regarding the Catholic Church and the other members of Council. That’s the difference between me and Art/Sean…I don’t engage in rank speculation about people.
#41 –
I believe I’ve already answered that question.
SMS
SMS,
Yes you did.
How about someone who would describe themselves as Catholic, but not “devoutly” Catholic (in other words, they do not, as you say, believe exactly as his/her church teaches)? Is that person a bigot?
Matt, come on now! Newsong is obviously of the “love the sinner, hate the sin” school of Christianity. By stating they think same-sex relationships are sinful, or any sexual relations outside of marriage as sinful, then going on to oppose (like you) homosexual marriage, that implicates homosexuals as sinners. There’s just no way to parse any other meaning from it. If that’s not enough for you, Newsong later states, “Do we have a place for all misfits or just some in particular?” That’s a crass way of stating gays are abnormal; ergo, gays are sinners.
And your defense of Ahmanson’s statement is strange–are you claiming moral relativism? I thought only lefties do that! Not only that, but given Ahmanson’s longtime advocacy of Reconstructionism, his statement sounds much more sinister than your benign spin.
One more time: do you think Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr. is still a “stellar conservative”?
Am I, the newcomer here, the only one who has noticed that Matt is not a question-anwerer?
Not answering questions is his forte, his M. O., his very raison d’etre.
#43 –
I’m open-minded. I would give that person the benefit of the doubt, but what’s your point? Mine is that the Catholic church still teaches fundamentalism.
SMS
Gustavo,
Actually, Newsong believes that we’re ALL sinners, and therefore, in some way, “misfits”. ALL of us, including me. We ALL mess up. We’re ALL in need of community, reconciliation and relationship with others.
One has to possess a degree of humility to acknowledge that yes, in some way, I’m a misfit. There’s no shame in claiming that.
Are they perfect at providing that community? No. But then, neither is any other church on the face of the planet. Churches, after all, are run by people.
For a more expansive view of what they stand for (beyond just one issue), see the link I provided above.
SMS 46,
My point, as I stated previously, is that it’s absurd to speculate that a person believes a certain way on a certain issue just because they went to a particular school or once attended a church that has a particular view on a single topic. That is simply, and self-evidently, absurd.
Because you say that you would give that person the benefit of the doubt, you show yourself to actually be open-minded on that dynamic. What I was also highlighting is that Art and Sean take the opposite approach….better to just assume that someone is guilty by association (and yeah, that’s highly ethical)…without having ever had an in-depth conversation with said person about what they believe.
And one more comment about the “we’re all sinners” viewpoint;
If you stop and think about it, it’s actually a very liberating theology. If one truly believes it, and takes it seriously, then one MUST come to the conclusion that no person is better than any other…regardless of gender, race, politics, religion, sexual orientation, or anything else.
From these posts it seems as if religious persecution is back in vogue.