No one can say that president Obama is not ambitious. His current thrust to “fast track” a Universal health care system in this country must be derailed. With 1,300 health care providers in this nation today the government wants to give us a “choice?”
At the present time I read that roughly one-fifth of the US economy, $2.5 trillion dollars, is connected to health care. George Will recently questioned numbers of the uninsured as expressed by Donna Brazile when he stated “you talk about the 46, 47 million uninsured. Fourteen million of them are already eligible for other government programs and haven’t signed up. Ten million are in households with household incomes of $75,000 a year and could afford it if they wanted to. Furthermore, an enormous number in that 47 million are not American citizens. Sixty percent of the uninsured in San Francisco are not citizens.”
Physicians are hammered by HMO’s and PPO’s with regard to their charges for services rendered. Can you imagine president Obama and company establishing the compensation paid to doctors for specific services performed in this new “nationalized health care” system after doctors have dedicated their lives getting their degrees along with their financial investment related to eventually completing that education that’s in the $100,000 to $200,000 range.
Folks “It takes many years of education and training to become a physician: 4 years of undergraduate school, 4 years of medical school, and 3 to 8 years of internship and residency, depending on the specialty selected.”
Let’s not overlook malpractice insurance where claims and legal defense spending in 2001 reached $6.5 billion dollars. Doctors in some specialty fields are moving out of some states or retiring early due to their high premiums for this coverage.
Do you feel confidant that the government can establish a better health system by giving us a “choice?” When you go to purchase a new (or used) car you can select from 45 different manufacturers around the globe from Toyota to Tata and Kaima. Compare that to 1,300 healthcare providers and tell me that Americans do not have a choice.”
The following opening text is from Real Clear Politics and the Washington Post.
The full article link, including details about Medicare, Medicaid and employer paid premiums, is to be found at the end of this post.
June 15, 2009
Naive, Hypocritical and Dishonest
By Robert Samuelson
WASHINGTON — It’s hard to know whether President Obama’s health care “reform” is naive, hypocritical or simply dishonest. Probably all three. The president keeps saying it’s imperative to control runaway health spending. He’s right. The trouble is that what’s being promoted as health care “reform” almost certainly won’t suppress spending and, quite probably, will do the opposite.
Larry, YOU have a “choice”, did you or did you or did you not CHOOSE MEDICARE?
Why not give all americans “choice”, let us choose between private insurers and a government sponsored insurance.
REMEMBER FOLKS, EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD HAS SOME FORM OF GOVERNMENT SPONSORED HEALTHCARE, AND IF THEY WERE SO UNHAPPY THEY COULD VOTE IT OUT, HAVE THEY?
WE ARE THE CHUMPS, the insurance companies are in this for profit NOT HEALTHCARE, a sick person is a detriment to their bottom line.
Larry, do the words NAIVE, HYPOCRITICAL AND DISHONEST APPLY TO YOU? AGAIN, do you receive MEDICARE BENEFITS???
#1 anonster seems to have hit the nail on the head. Strange how our great democracy just can’t afford to have healthy citizens when even many developing and 3rd world countries recogize the necessity of health care for all.
I’ve got more choices under Medicare than were ever offered by any of my employers. I’d prefer that Dr’s who are more concerned with making money move out of state so I can never see them for treatment.
Anonster. You need a choice?
Should I provide a listing of all 1300 providers?
Instead of engaging in another personal attack on me you might just read the entire Washington Post story and add constructive debate. But that would be out of character for you.
By your logic every business should be shut down because they are “for profit” starting with your corner Albertsons or Ralphs supermarket.
We do have “choices.” This is not a sole source debate. You can shop for health care coverage just as you shop for your food.
Wait and see what happens with a European style plan where the government will decide what services you may get and when they will be provided. I have heard horror stories of surgery denied and/or delayed with universal plans. Hopefull that will not happen to you.
Larry, over 18,000 PEOPLE DIE EACH YEAR in this country, because they lack heath care. This isn’t a car or a coffee maker, that you can “choose” to do without
Why do leave out the FACT, that right now INSURANCE CARRIERS DECIDE what services you may or may not receive and when they will be provided? I would prefer someone who ISN’T trying to make a buck off my health care making that decision.
Private insurers have had free rein to provide health services, the results; millions uninsured and sky rocketing costs.
What you have “chosen” is quite pertinent to the debate, as YOU are the one denigrating government sponsored health care even though YOU are taking advantage of it.
If it’s SO BAD Larry, WHY DON’T YOU OPT OUT?
ANONSTER!!!!!
What I really cant stand is anonsters boiler-plate lifeless diatribe about socialized medicine.
Let me say, first, right or wrong, anonsters entire argument is, as usual, intellectually offensive.
“LISTEN! EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING IT!!! SO IT HAS TO BE A GOOD THING!”
What are you, twelve?
Forget the fact that the rest of Europe is growing up, while you still haven’t. That Britain, France and Germany are all being forced to limit access to care. Rationing, already extensive, is on the increase.
“If something is perceived as free, people will consume more of it that they would if they had to pay for it. If food were free, would you eat hamburger or steak?”
Forget that we’re already seeing socialized medicine for our seniors, being pushed into managed care because medicare A and B are going under. And managed care is RATIONED MEDICINE.
“When people are spending other peoples money, they do not worry about the cost or number of services consumed.”
Forget the fact that today, taxpayers foot the bill for 58% of health care costs in America, and we have a sinister hybrid of socialism and capitalism already.
Forget the fact that the government gives money to hospitals who have a duty to shareholders, and no one is responsible for maximizing patient outcomes.
Forget about the thousands of people who die or are left demented due to bypass surgeries that studies show only 3% of patients actually need.
Forget that its your government already paying those bills.
Instead of demanding that your government spend our money in a rational manner, you scream MORE GOVERNMENT!
And you are really annoying.
Arrrrgggghh…..lies, lies, lies, AND MORE LIES!!! Who does not get healthcare????? Anybody can walk across the border, get off a plane, get off a boat in ANY CITY in the US and walk into ANY HOSPITAL and receive Medical care….PERIOD! You may not ask them if they are legal, and you may not refuse them service based on an inability to pay…That is part of the problem! Am I the only person in the world who thinks people should be responsible for taking care of themselves? Is it so wrong to turn people away from the hospital when they have the stomach flu? Is it evil to force people to pay their bills?
Can you imagine how expensive cars would be, if you could walk into any dealership and say, “I would like that car” and they HAD to give it to you! Regardless of credit, regardless of ability to pay! You could get the car for FREE! And why not, the poor sap who came in to buy the next one would have to pay for it, but this guy has “auto” insurance, so he will pick out the nicest car he can get, and does not care what the cost is, because the bill will be sent to the insurance company! So now the third guy, who has been frugal and comes into the dealership and wants to pay cash for his car…..he now get screwed, because he has had to pay for the first guys car, in addition to the inflated price of the second guys car!
So now, because this system is “no good” in steps the Government, everybody will now have the “Insurance” and the car dealer will have to get less for his cars because he has been profiting from them for “far too long” So he will get a set dollar amount for the cars that he makes and sells, and that is it, because there is only one guy paying the bill!
Great, so now, the car dealer will face greater demand, and will make less money per car….and guess what will happen next….wait for it…..c’mon……..you get less quantity and lower quality cars!!! They will not make as many or as fancy cars, because they will have no reason to! Now everybody will have to wait to get their car, and there will be no cars, that are nicer, because they have stopped making them!!!!
What is some of the driving costs of the current system ?
1) Anyone can go to the emergency room, with or without insurance, but who pays? Those who have insurance of course. Does anyone believe this does not add to the individuals and business cost in the current system ?
2) Uninsured avoid going to regular check ups and when they get sick they often end up in the ER or on the public system. Often this costs several times more than if they had received treatment or prevention before hand.
3) Obama has conceeded or so I read that Malpractice claims need to be brought under some reasnoable control, this adds to the cost of heath care also.
Not having everyone insured adds to the cost of everyone who has insurance and to the ongoing cost of current Government health care plans.
The public system will of course end up with the sickest and poorest of the people who need health care. These are also the ones who will cost the most per person to insure. If a private company with more healthy clients cannot compete, something is wrong.
anonymizer, Forget the FACT that Britain, France and Germany consistently out perform the US in healthcare delivery.
Forget the the FACT that we SPEND NEARLY TWICE AS MUCH on our health care than any other country.
Forget the FACT that in the US, healthcare costs are responsible for over 50% of bankruptcies.
NO, I DON’T THINK I CAN.
As to “growing up”, I think that ANYONE who continues to BELIEVE that the US health care system is the best, despite ALL EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY is seriously childish.
Because I SAY SO, isn’t a rational argument.
Bigmarkod, emergency rooms and hospitals are closing due the stress our health care system (or lack of one) has put on them, this hurts us all.
This debate is primarily about the middle class, the poor have medicaid (and emergency rooms) and the elderly have medicare, but WHERE does a family who just lost their job and thus their insurance, go to get CANCER TREATMENTS, the emergency room?
Comparing health care to cars is not only stupid it’s sick. Stop being so simplistic.
anonster,
You are patently dishonest with yourself, or just insane, you state “FACT that Britain, France and Germany consistently out perform the US in healthcare delivery.”
Waiting 26 weeks for knee surgery is not my idea of better “Delivery” Waiting 18 weeks for heart surgery is not better “delivery” and so on and so on…..
I thought I made it simple enough so even you could understand…but I guess I was wrong. The reason you call my auto examplle “simplistic” is because you cant refute it, because I am once again right.
I did a quick Google search of wait times, and a report came up. They are Bragging in England and Wales that they have dropped the number of people who have to wait OVER 6 Months! That is good delivery?
Yes, I guess I am just some Mexican Hating, anti gay, simplistic, Talibani, Republican…..but I am right, so take your little freedom hating, socialist crybaby self south 70 miles or north 1200 and enjoy your “I am a loser and need to cry about everything because my daddy didn’t teach me how to be self reliant, and I need big brother to take care of everything for me.” And stop living off my dime, you pathetic whiner. You are too ignorant to understand the most basic concepts of economics, and reuse to learn. When confronted with an argunemtn you cannot refute, you brush it off as “simplistic” Once again, if you are right, you don’t need to stretch and warp the facts into some overly complex theory, sadly for you one plus one will always equal two, and that is something all of your little dismissals and angles can not change.
My only conclusion is that you have never taken risk or produced anything of value to anybody, so you must cry about the inequalities of life in a feeble attempt to curry favor with the weak and unmotivated parasites ot this country such as yourself.
Anonster,
You socialists have been spreading these canards for a long time now. Its time to put them to rest.
The WHO doesnt even track healthcare performance anymore because of the complexity of the task, but the last time they did, in 2000, the United States ranked #1 FIRST! in responsiveness.
Next, we spend TWICE as much on health care as any other country. Really??? You know, this is one of those times when I want to tell people like anonster “you want it, you got it”. Cause you see, what people like anonster REALLY WANT, is to control EVERY part of your life. This argument, we spend TWICE AS MUCH, is meant to make you feel guilty. Like spending twice as much for the milk you buy should be wrong.
But if you’re a normal human being, in a country with a GDP the size of America, you understand that buying that gallon of milk at twice the price is the price you’re willing to pay for something YOU WANT. Not half the price for something YOU DO NOT WANT.
And you dont want what anonster is selling.
See, you can play with numbers all day long. And the fact is, when adjusted for GDP, (that means how much we produce in this country, and a HIGHER standard of living) the percentage of what we spend on health care is NO HIGHER than any other country, adjusting for what we still lovingly call here FREELY CHOSEN PROCEDURES. People want them, so they pay for them. They dont have to ASK PERMISSION for something they want. And dont have to be told if they want to pay for some procedure, they will be denied because EVERYONE cant get one too.
Thats where all this garbage is headed. Make no mistake.
Anonster and his ilk prowl these posts, demand evidence for everything they DONT like, but never provide any themselves.
Health care costs are RESPONSIBLE for 50% of the bankruptcies. REALLY????
Reality check: 82% of people who file for bankruptcy have health insurance. SURPRISE! Thats the same number that have Health Insurance PERIOD!
Oooh, the NHCH says “medical expenses were a part of 50% of the bankruptcies.”
Sorry anonster. black teeth are a symptom of smoking but they arent the cause of cancer. Correlation is not causation. First rule of logic.
This is fear mongering and hysterics at their worst. Do your own homework. Look it up yourself. Better yet, make sure your HMO or insurance doesnt waste administrative dollars when you become a client.
We spend 6 times as much as other countries on bureaucrats wasting time shoving papers around.
Dont buy into more bureaucrats pushing more papers around…
anonymizer and Bigmarkod, you two, would do better spending your time educating yourselves, rather than making up stuff about me and who I am and what I believe.
A good place to start would be at; NPR: Health Care an International Comparison and the CommonWealth Fund.
anonymizer, if you check the chart from NPR you will see that the US spends the MOST on health care as part of GDP (2005) 15.3%, France 11.1%, Germany 10.7%, Great Britain 8.3%, Netherlands 9.2%, Switzerland 11.6% and Japan 8%. Bottom line, the US spends the most per person with the fewest people covered. As for bureaucracy, researchers at Harvard Medical School found that in 1999 bureaucracy accounted for at least 31% of the total US health spending as compared to 16.7% in Canada. And that BUREAUCRACY was from PRIVATE INSURERS NOT GOVERNMENT.
Bigmarkod, yes, you are simplistic. You seem to believe our healthcare problems stem from poor people sponging off the system, that is simplistic and shockingly uninformed.
Health care costs are a rising burden on middle class families and large and small businesses, we need to rein these costs in now, because they are DAMAGING our economy.
More and more businesses are dropping health care coverage for their employees because it is too costly and it’s making US businesses less competitive with foreign companies, who don’t have to bear these costs.
And workers who lose their employee- sponsored health insurance must shop for it in the individual market, yet these insurers can refuse coverage or offer discriminatory rates to people with pre-existing medical conditions, making it virtually impossible for these folks to have adequate and affordable coverage.
Leaving 50 million Americans uninsured or under insured and one medical emergency away from bankruptcy, SHOULD be unacceptable to ANY decent person, sadly this now excludes the majority of right-wingers.
A good way to tell if Government health care works or not; ask an old person if they want to trade their medicare benefits for a private insurance plan. Let me know how many takers you get.
Bigmarkod, you also seem to be under the mistaken impression that all government sponsored health care plans are the same,they are not. If you go to the NPR website and look at their comparative chart, you will see that each country has its own unique system of coverage and financing, some are better than others.
The US should be able to pick from the best plans to pattern our health care after (France, New Zealand) and we should keep what we do well ( preventative care).
But we will only get a good health care plan if we act like GROWN-UPS not mad brats who pretend every thing is fine and refuse to find solutions.
My suggestion to you and your ilk, PULL YOUR FINGERS OUT OF YOUR EARS AND OPEN YOUR EYES,the US DOES NOT HAVE THE BEST HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD! I realize this is a shock to Americas right-wingers, who seem to be stuck in a time warp, but the US HAS PROBLEMS THAT NEED TO BE FIXED, why is that such an affront to you wing-nuts?
Calling people “socialists” may feel good, but it’s not very erudite, as evidenced by your arguments.
Nobody on medicare is going to go buy private insurance and turn their card in. The cost of private insurance for those over 65 would be if available would cost over a thousand dollars per month.
Medicare also covers those who have become to sick to get private insurance, but often after bankrupty or a near death insident. Many of these cost could be avoided with a national full coverage system.
I did not get a choice in picking a doctor with my HMO after not having insurance for many years. So exactly what choice is built into the current system. At least with Medicare and medicaid you can pick your own doctors, try to do that with an HMO.
Current System = people without insurance no on going care,emergencies covered by people with insurance or government at 20 times the needed cost.= Rationing of heath care but our type of rationing results in bankrupty, added expense for all and death for some.
Current System has no choice for many, costs everyone extra and rations care. These are the main objections to a national system. Well they already exist in the current system. So at least we should go with something that reduces overall cost and saves lives.
Anonster
So first its “We spend twice as much as any other country” then its “we spend the most”. So which is it? Cause I dont mind spending the most for the best response. Thanks for not leaving me on the waiting list for six months…
And by the way, every time you say the USA covers the fewest people, i am going to call you a LIAR.
Everyone can get HEALTH CARE in this country. Not everyone has HEALTH INSURANCE. Suddenly the two are equated? Not even close.
And sorry, that 6X figure we spend on bureaucracy as opposed to the rest of the world IS GOVERNMENT AT WORK AD INFINITUM. Remember how much of your health care dollar Washington already handles, and people like you are on crooked knee to get them to take care of more of it for you, cause you’re not worthy to deal with it yourself.
Well, I am. And so are a lot of other Americans.
You dont even care whether problems get fixed in this country. That is just a useful little debate tool you swing around. When REAL waste and abuse about the system are pointed out you point somewhere else other than government. What is it? You woke up on 9-11 and said “oh, we deserved it”?
Pull your head out of your butt and quit hating your country. Look around, listen to something other than your state controlled media and go down to your library and read some American History other than Howard Zinn for some reality check. You leftists understand your time is waning. It doesnt work. It never did. It never will. So those who make the world work stumble and you proceed onto the scene and say “look how everything sucks!” and think that that is going to make a difference.
You don’t.
***HEADLINES FROM YOUR SOCIALIZED MEDICINE COUNTRIES WHO ARE SLOWLY BACKING AWAY FROM THIS FIASCO ******
Some of the headlines of the latest articles of of Great Britain’s Medical Care: UK lags behind on cancer drug access. Specialist stroke care “lottery” Cancer patients told life-prolonging treatment too expensive. 5000 elderly killed each year for lack of care beds. British Health Care Rationed. Life saving cancer drugs held from patients. British body rejects EPO drugs for cancer patients. 2000 British doctors out of work. National Health Service faces rising bill for negligence claims. British boy to go to India for operation. Figures show more patients waiting for operations. Drug regulator to withdraw approval of Alzheimer’s treatment. U. K. Liberal Democrats Raise Taxes to pay for Health Care. Smokers and obese banned from UK hospitals. NHS fund bias against men may cost 2,500 lives per year. Tumor patients hit by NHS shortages. Heart patients die on waiting lists. Study finds British hospitals are still smelly, cold and poorly maintained. Discrimination Rampant in British Health Care.
Other European Countries: Switzerland hospitals on the verge of a breakdown. Sweden edges toward free-market medicine. Netherlands socioeconomic inequalities similar to UK and Scandinavian countries.
Canada: PET scans not covered. Physician turns away patients for being 55+. Patients shouldn’t wait for more than 8 weeks for cardiac defibrillator. Canada inches towards private medicine. Hip and knee surgery wait times should be not more than 6 months. Surgery backlog hits 5,500 at kids hospital. Access to specialists difficult.
*Doesn’t anyone ever watch Prime Ministers Questions on C-SPAN on Sunday nights? The National Healthcare System is brought up almost on every occasion. They have had a variety of scandals, ineffecientcies and increased rationing and wait times for surgeries.
Why have none of you folks brought up the price of presciption drugs in this country? How about the cost of MRI’s, Chemo and the rest of our lovely physician inspired investment groups? Benson brings up the primary problem – the HMO! This is the goose that killed the whole system. Thinking they could NOT provide healthcare, surgery or testing and get the drug cartel kick-backs too – was visionary to say the least! Especially when band-aids and hydrogen peroxide don’t cost that much.
There is little doubt that “Nationalized Healthcare” should only be a “back-stop system”, not the Primary….winner take all program. This
is what killed Hillary’s plan back in 1992! She could not convince the greedy sluts in medicine to create Regional Insurance Exchanges and price the cost of services rationally. After all, the cost of renting a Doctor’s office in California is probably going to be more expensive that in IOWA – just for starters!
So far, the President says…”If you like your present plan…you can keep it…period!” OK,
we have a PPO plan through our employer group….and we want to keep it! We do not want the “National System” now..but who knows…maybe someday we will want that option….when our various Pre-Existing Conditions…mount up over
the years!
Ron and Anna,
I believe that most of the cause of the problems in our system is the current socialist-free market hybrid that already exists.
Bringing in more socialism wont fix it. All of what you say is pretty true. But the answer is to make health care more open to the free market.
Let entrepreneurs open little health clinics without all the regulation and prohibitive start up costs and allow patients to sign waivers to decrease or eliminate malpractice insurance so malignant attorneys fees are eliminated.
Then you will see health costs come down.
anonymizer, stop pulling facts out of your ass.
Both medicaid and medicare have LOWER OVERHEAD COSTS than private insurers. Private Health insurance realizes about 31% overhead for administrative costs and income, medicare and medicaid are both at about 3% overhead costs.
As to the lowest rate of coverage; Great Britain; 100%, France; 100%,Canada; 100%, Germany; 99.8%, Netherlands; 98.5% and the US;82% of people under 65 and 100% of people over 65.
WE DO NOT, REPEAT; DO NOT HAVE THE BEST HEALTH CARE, DESPITE PAYING THE MOST!
From the Common Wealth Fund 2007; “When compared to five other nations; Australia,Canada, Germany, New Zealand and the UK the US ranks LAST or next to last on five dimensions of a high performance health system; quality, access, efficiency, equity and healthy lives. The US is the ONLY COUNTRY WITHOUT UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE, partly accounting for its POOR PERFORMANCE on access, equity and health outcomes.”
If you want HORROR STORIES about AMERICAN health care, just google it or better yet watch SICKO. It is laughable that you want to point out the troubles other systems are having, but TOTALLY IGNORE and DISMISS PROBLEMS WITH OUR OWN DISASTROUS SYSTEM. What don’t you get about OVER 18,000 DEATHS each year from lack of health care?
You FAUX PATRIOTS make me sick, you impede progress by your total ignorance of the facts and steep yourselves in phony notions about US superiority.
YOU EQUATE PATRIOTISM WITH SHOUTING; “USA” AT THE TOP OF YOUR LUNGS, RATHER THAN MAKING BETTER POLICY. YOU ARE BEREFT OF ANY IDEAS OR SOLUTIONS. In short, you need to shut-up and get out of the way.
anonster.
We “impede progress.” You finally have shown your cards. Let’s simply redistribute the wealth of this nation so that we can satisfy anonster’s “choice” of a universal health care system.
Notice how he resorts to swearing when he cannot make a sound, supportable argument.
Larry, WHERE EXACTLY DID I “RESORT(S) TO SWEARING”? I also believe that MY comments are filled with facts, unlike most of the other comments that rely on hot air.
As to “impeding progress”, do you honestly believe that the US should NEVER CHANGE OR PROGRESS? Do you really think that our current health care system is PERFECT and providing good affordable health care to all Americans?
Oh that’s right, YOU wouldn’t know about private health care insurance because YOU ARE ON MEDICARE, HELPING TO REDISTRIBUTE OTHER PEOPLES MONEY IN TO YOUR OWN POCKETS. What is it Larry, either you’re a LEECH or a SUPPORTER OF GOVERNMENT SPONSORED HEALTH CARE, the call is yours.
Talk about showing your cards, yours are FLASHING “HYPOCRITE,HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE”.
People keep saying that anyone can get healthcare. This is true, but for those of us who have pre-existing conditions, which includes most folks over 50, loss of job-based insurance – once Cobra has elapsed – throws us into the most expensive category on the market. A couple in their late 50s pays $1500 a month or more if they have high blood pressure, diabetes, autoimmune disorders any one of countless other conditions. If they’re out of work and are taking in, at most $50,000 a year, how can they afford this? Here’s where your bankruptcies happen.
pigeonca.
While I cannot disagree with your example, this is not an easy mountain to climb. And for president Obama to engage in another full court press on an issue this large is simply unacceptable. It reminds me of a 1008 page budget that was voted on before Congress even had time to digest the text so that Nancy could visit the Pope.