The Islamic Mosque issue is being beaten senselessly on all the talk shows this Sunday Morning. Sensitive or Insensitive? Good Idea or Bad Idea? Legally Right or Wrong?
Let’s just put it in the words of the Great Emancipator:
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http://blueandgraytrail.com/event/Gettysburg_Address_%5BFull_Text%5D
The Gettysburg Address
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate—we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom— and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
=====================*Let’s just put it this way:
“”Dumb Idea” to cause all the furor…..move that Mosque to Brooklyn and see how well that “Grand Gesture” is received…as well.
Wow, that was profound.
It’s the weird quaint old Winships, Alonzo. Nobody usually knows what they’re trying to say. I didn’t see the Gettysburg connection at all, but their little comment at the end shows that they care as little about religious freedom as any of their Republican pals.
Maybe they think we’re in a “Civil War” with Muslims? I dunno.
I do know Lincoln kicked General Grant’s ass early on for his bigotry toward Jews around the camp, and Grant promptly got over his anti-Semitism. I am sure that Lincoln would stand for the Constitution, tolerance, and freedom of speech and religion. And remembering who the enemy really is, which is NOT Islam and Muslims.
Instead of a Mosque let stay with another monument to greed & avarice with a new headquarters building for Goldman Sachs.
Would you all stop using the word “Mosque”? Fer chrissake. It’s not a mosque…it’s a community center that will have a prayer room in it so that if you’re hanging out there and you’re a Muslim, you can recite your daily prayers…which many Muslims do several times each day.
If you build it he will come.
Go a head and build it, may be the only way to catch ben ladin.
*Thinking the folks building and occupying “the Community Center” would use wisdom, common sense or apply a modicum of sensitivity to their neighbors…..is probably asking way too much….as can be seen by the forgone OC Blog comments. Let it be said then: When they call the NYPD or NYFD…..we would strongly advise them buying all the tickets to the Policeman and Firemans Balls they can afford…….because that will be the only time they will ever see any of those folks! How many members of the soon to be “Community Center” died again? Perhaps they should be listed on the front of the building along with the other 2990 folks who perished that day in September 2001. Let’s just say….Lincoln was a little more
sensitive to conflict and to the results of same!
*Just found this in the CRA Newsletter…..
Sacrilege at Ground Zero
By Charles Krauthammer (Archive ) · Friday, August 13, 2010
WASHINGTON — A place is made sacred by a widespread belief that it was visited by the miraculous or the transcendent (Lourdes, the Temple Mount), by the presence there once of great nobility and sacrifice (Gettysburg), or by the blood of martyrs and the indescribable suffering of the innocent (Auschwitz).
When we speak of Ground Zero as hallowed ground, what we mean is that it belongs to those who suffered and died there — and that such ownership obliges us, the living, to preserve the dignity and memory of the place, never allowing it to be forgotten, trivialized or misappropriated.
================*We agree…
rw
@ Ron & Ann W:
For several years after the attacks of 911 in NYC, I would find myself in a fit of emotional rage over the attacks, especially as I had “plenty” of time to think while I was driving to work.
The senseless killings of innocents would eat at me, as I am sure it did many other Americans, and most of the world joined us in our pain, and empathized with us.
Without prompting, I replayed in my mind:
1) The people jumping to their deaths.
2) A man calling his wife, and telling her, “Honey, please don’t think I am a coward, but I have to jump”
3) A woman being interviewed after the towers had collapsed stating “I don’t see buildings falling down, I see children whose parents are never coming home, or parents who will never see their children again.”
I imagined the terrible decision that these innocents had to make, TO DIE BY FIRE OR TO DIE BY LEAPING TO THEIR DEATHS, and wondered what if someone had forced me or my own daughter to make that terrible decision, or if someone had denied my daughter her father, or me my daughter, and a sense of hopelessness would overcome me as I thought about this.
But fortunately, this sense of hopelessness would be REPLACED with PURPOSE:
a) To bring the guilty to justice and make them pay for their crimes against America, and the civilized world (because other countries also lost their citizens.)
b) To ensure that we supported our government in the coming changes that would be necessary to increase America’s security.
c) Understanding what led to this, and to work to prevent it from happening again.
d) Ensuring that in any ensuing uncertainty or potential hysteria, and as we sought justice, that we did NOT allow the terrorists to win by forcing us to react and radically change our US Constitution and our American Values.
Unfortunately, I see ourselves violating our US Constitution, and our American Values.
i) We are violating our US Constitutional protections of Freedom of Assembly; and Freedom of Religion
ii) We are violating our American Values of “Innocent Until Proven Guilty”, and are instead discriminating against a group of American CITIZENS and Residents because of their FAITH, and wrongly assuming that “they are guilty until proven innocent”.
iii) And then we argue for DEVALUING our Constitutional Protections and our American Values for convenience’s sake.
I agree the hurt and the pain, and the sensitivity is there, and has been there, and will continue to be there…but a great hurt and a great loss will be inflicted by US, on US if we continue denying others their Constitutional protections, and if we continue devaluing our American Values and thus giving the terrorists the victory that they seek, turning America against Americans and against our values…remember the motto of 911, “UNITED WE STAND”, and the words of Ben Franklin “we must all hang together, or we will all hang separately”.
Francisco “Paco” Barragan
served US Marines (1987-1994)
served CA Army National Guard (1994-1997)
@ Ron & Ann W:
You ask, “What would Lincoln Do?”
I am guided by a principle espoused by Abraham Lincoln – “Whether God is on our side is not my concern as much as are we on God’s side.”
I take this to mean, for those of faith, that sometimes we claim to know what God thinks and then we may mistakenly act with all of our HUMAN imperfections, thinking that we are doing God’s work, and acting against our fellow brothers and sisters; and then trying to “enlist” God in our imperfect or improper actions to provide cover for these poor actions;
when we should instead be asking ourselves:
Are my actions moral?
Am I acting with integrity?
Am I judging others?
Am I injuring my neighbor or others with my acts or my omissions to act?
Am I devaluing the human dignity or violating the rights of my fellow citizens?
I think Lincoln would be asking himself, “Would God Approve?”; “What would Jesus Do?”; but I would go back to his words,
“that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom— and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
Thus, many died for our Freedoms and we must honor their sacrifice….and it is well noting that Lincoln did NOT say a government OF SOME of the people, by the people, for SOME OF the people.”
Francisco “Paco” Barragan
Francisco “Paco” Barragan
Francisco “Paco” Barragan,
Touching words you bring…..thank you! Well said…..well felt…..honest and meaningful.
Your inspiring words bring to mind the days of Pearl Harbor….that FDR felt compelled to
incarcerate an entire race of people into camps. It surely was not fair, legal or followed
our Consititution…..yet, may have been necessary. Then the dropping of the Atomic Bombs
on Hiroshima and Nagasaki……again…morally reprehensible…..but may have saved over
a million lives….of both Japanese and Americans.
What your words bring should be felt by all….including those that wish to build an edifice
in the shadow of “hallowed NYC ground”. Perhaps the Japanese need to buy the Pearl Harbor
Memorial above the USS Arizona and build a Shinto Temple which overshadows the property.
Perhaps not. No one should ever be against anyone’s religion…..No one should ever demand
their rights when emotional wounds are involved. One more example: The ground of “Wounded Knee”…..put up a statue of George Armstrong Custer! Probably not a very
good idea. Or…..a Statue of Andrew Jackson……on Cherokee land – in Oklahoma!!
Francisco “Paco” Barragan – Thank you again….for some fine thoughts – all should ponder.
“When we speak of Ground Zero as hallowed ground, what we mean is that it belongs to those who suffered and died there — and that such ownership obliges us, the living, to preserve the dignity and memory of the place, never allowing it to be forgotten, trivialized or misappropriated.”
. . . you people speak for no one, let alone New Yorkers. Have you no shame. Have you no sense of decency?
These Republicans. They think they’ve really got the authority to just sit in their armchairs and tell everyone else what they can and can’t do.
They think they can tell us whether or not we can marry someone of the same sex.
They think they can tell us what drugs we can and can’t take.
They think they can tell women whether or not they have to carry a pregnancy to term.
And this month they’ve decided they can sit on their fat asses and tell New Yorkers whether or not they can build an Islamic Center and where.
I hope New Yorkers, Muslims, gays, women, pot smokers, and anyone else who cares about freedom, tell these little Hitlers to go to hell. That would just about do it for that party.
Maybe I’ll wear a Don Wagner mask at the next Prop 19 rally.
Who is that, GF? I’ve never heard of him.
It was nice to see both our serious candidates for the 70th AD at our rally for Prop 19 last night though, wasn’t it? Melissa Fox for Democrats and Greens, and Debbie Tharp for Republicans and Libertarians – looks like the independents have a good choice between two great candidates!
Editor Vern: “They think they can tell us…”
No…..we think we should make people who casually brush off moral terpitude as being
“the way it is”…..”to think!” Damn us for that…all you want. We wouldn’t want to change
your mind or your behavior…..for any reason….we know that is impossible! Thanks for
giving the Elephant people another leg up on the next election cycle…when they don’t
even necessarily deserve it. Keep up that divide and conquer rhetoric…..dummy…..
don’t you get it? We are all Americans….and should be unified when it comes to a Muslim
Psychiatrist shooting down his fellow soldiers on an US Army Base – for one. Or was he
just following his religion like Jim Jones? Moral dilemmas…..you make the call partner!
I believe we’re all united against a Muslim psychiatrist shooting down his fellow soldiers – I’m against it!
As far as peaceful Muslims building a cultural center blocks from Ground Zero (which, if you’ve EVERY BEEN to NYC, means you CAN”T EVEN SEE IT) and it’s been approved by all the local authorities – I say it’s none of the business of Californian or Alaskan or Floridian busybodies.
You wanna prohibit Christian churches from Oklahoma City next? Or keep Catholic churches away from playgrounds, as Jon Oliver suggested on the Daily Show? Didn’t think so.
*Rudy….Rudy….Rudy!! He speaks for us…..enough said?
Watch this video of “Man Mistaken for Muslim Harassed at Anti-Mosque rally in NY”
1) Our Founding Fathers warned about and abhorred mob rule, or “Tyranny of the Majority”
2) Video demonstrates Discriminating and violating rights based on a wrong assumption.
3) In America we “believe in Innocent Until Proven Guilty”, but the crowd is acting on “Guilty until Proven innocent”.
4) How long before this escalates into violence?
5) By opposing an American Community Center that includes a muslim place of prayer (and muslims also were victims on 911), we are giving the terrorists the victory they want.
6) The goal of a terrorist is to cause chaos, instability, hostility and terror. For the EXTREMISTS of 911, TERROR was the END GOAL, and NOT JUST the MEANS.
So if we terrorize our own citizens, we are continuing to give them the victory that they sought, and are achieving their END GOAL of TERROR in our Community against our own citizens.
We must allow the American Muslim Community Center, and respect our US Constitution and ensure our American Values are intact.
Francisco “Paco” Barragan
Here is a video of the inside of Park 51 with an explanation from people using the facility.
My understanding is that anyone can enter a mosque, even a NON-Muslim as long as they remove their shoes…so there is no “secret agenda”.
Winships!
Tiger Woods is on your lawn !
Run to the window! (Or stagger?)
He’s a very bad man. Abraham Lincoln would never approve of Tiger Woods! Neither would Rudy, Rudy, Rudie. Or not.
The Other –
Always pleasant to hear from the voice of reason and with that thoughtful wisdom.. as usual.
Tiger has paid the price…..$500 million bucks…..and you wonder why he
has a tough time making a four foot putt? But as you can see, “it’s not about
the money…for Tiger…..it’s all about the winning!”
Elin Nordregan has done that which no other golfer in the world could do –
Make Tiger flinch!
rw