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Nobody had much expectation of our District Attorney Tony Rackauckas doing anything other than what he’s done most of his career – siding with law enforcement and sweeping everything under the rug – but the weight of evidence and the glare of public and media attention (thanks to our own Tony Bushala and friends) was just too harsh this time, and two Fullerton policemen are being charged in the gruesome beating murder of homeless man Kelly Thomas.
Jay Cicinelli
To be precise, ONE officer, Manuel Ramos, is being charged with second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter, which could get him up to 15 years to life in prison; while another, legendary one-eyed Cpl. Jay Cicinelli (pictured to right) is being charged with involuntary manslaughter and use of excessive force, which could get him 4 years in prison.
The Register describes Ramos threatening a cringing Kelly, “These fists are getting ready to fuck you up.” The cause of Thomas’ death, according to the DA’s statement, was the compression of the chest, making it impossible for Kelly to breathe. The other injuries to his face and head, Rackauckas said, contributed to his death.
Cicinelli, who lost an eye years ago in the LAPD and was then hired in Fullerton, was described here by eyewitnesses as going up to the prone Kelly after he’d already been savagely beaten, “dropping his knee on him,” and hitting him repeatedly with the butt of his Taser, “concentrating on a front portion of Thomas’s face…with the cold precision of a surgeon.”
Apparently the four other cops on the scene – mere onlookers? – are not facing charges. Is that right, even if they did nothing – shouldn’t it have been their job to pull their out-of-control buddies off of the helpless dying man? More, from the Reg, and developing…….
update: T-Rack’s presser:
The Mugshots, courtesy of Friends For Fullerton’s Future
Kudos to DA Tony Rackauckas for stepping up and doing the right and just thing.
Thank you too Tony Bushala and all the others who have steadfastly fought to see that justice be done in this case. Were it not for you I doubt this day would have ever come.
Sure Sin Mill,
You have said something different about Susie Young Kim.
You have said that she is fucking bitch and that she deserved to dye.
Stanley,
I have said no such thing.
What I have said is that the Santa Ana PD was justified in their use of lethal force in regards to Ms. Kim. Ms. Kim used her motor vehicle as a deadly weapon and drove directly at one of the officers.
It was on this blog so there must be record of it somewhere after April 10, 2009 I believe.
Well when you find me saying that Stanley please post a record of it here.
I have no access to the Pedroza’s data base but, unlike you, I have good memory.
You have always denied everything you have ever done when it did no longer supported your new spinning propaganda.
I am sure that these familiar with you will agree with me.
more news people than protestors.
In the Oscar Grant filmed fatal shooting, BART officer Johannes Mehserle was charged with 2nd degree murder, convicted of involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced to 2 years only to be released much earlier. (For perspective) I don’t expect these two out of the six to serve much time if convicted of anything.
Kudos to Bushala and the 4F crew for helping raise the necessary hell for any charges of any kind to be filed. No kudos for T-Rack.
Gabriel San Roman wrote:
> In the Oscar Grant filmed fatal shooting, BART officer Johannes
> Mehserle was charged with 2nd degree murder, convicted of
> involuntary manslaughter and was sentenced to 2 years only to be
> released much earlier.
I’m actually surprised BART officer Johannes Mehserle served any time at all given that the Oakland District Attorney prosecuted him on a charge that was incredibly difficult–if not impossible–to prove to a jury.
What the Oakland DA did was deliberately overcharge Mehserle with 2nd degree murder in an attempt to appease an angry public and prevent further unrest. It was a politically-motivated prosecution.
That doesn’t mean I don’t believe Mehserle shouldn’t have been punished. What he did was clearly negligent. But to prove 2nd degree murder is something that the Oakland DA *KNEW* beforehand it could never do.
What the cops did to Kelly Thomas is pretty much business as usual. The people in power turn a blind eye to it. But when they get caught at doing something that makes the public angry, the system scapegoats them.
That’s how the system protects itself. It is a mechanism to maintain this silly facade about “equal justice under law” and all this other crap about how wonderfully magnificent the law and the courts are … blah, blah, blah.
> (For perspective) I don’t expect these two out of the six to serve much time
> if convicted of anything.
I’ve not seen all the evidence, but in my opinion, what Orange County DA Tony Rackauckas is doing is deliberately overcharging them to appease the public. This is going to be yet another “show trial” to protect the system.
> Kudos to Bushala and the 4F crew for helping raise the necessary hell
> for any charges of any kind to be filed.
One of the main reasons why this case gained any traction whatsoever is because Tony Bushala’s close association with politicians like Chris Norby, Bruce Whittaker, and Shawn Nelson.
If it wasn’t the fact this case–for whatever reason–irritated men with money and power, “T-Rack” probably wouldn’t have bothered to even open up a serious investigation into this matter.
The reason why the Orange County Register and other mainstream media didn’t initially cover this story is because they thought Kelly Thomas was just another dead homeless person.
As you know, cops beat up and kill people all the time in Orange County. But most of their victims are darker-skinned, working-class males who have no ties to powerful people.
Thank you for voicing the opinion of many of us. I cold not have said it better. Thank you Vern for keeping focus on the issue. Thank you Tony Bushala and all who worked on keeping this from being swept under the rug, I hope we would all do the same thing the next time anyone suffers the same fate as Kelly Thomas. I will.
As you know, cops beat up and kill people all the time in Orange County. But most of their victims are darker-skinned, working-class males who have no ties to powerful people.
For example, see Amber’s recent story on last year’s Anaheim police shooting of Cesar Cruz:
http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2011/09/a-mother-fights-for-justice/
Hey, I just read the story to the end, and it’s a good one – and Kelly’s in it too!
Good thing I am white.
…. For those who think education means somthing.
Burkle, Net Worth$3.2 B As of September 2011, Education: Diploma, High School.
“But I’ve already told you that I believe the Oakland DA’s attempt to prosecute Mehserle on a 2nd degree murder charge was completely bogus; they knew he would not be convicted on it.”
Contrary to placating public anger, putting a 2nd degree murder charge on Mehserle that in your estimation of the DA knew he wasn’t going to be convicted of, could have been said to be something that would actually inflame temperament. Getting the public’s hopes high and going with a lesser charge and a light sentence (1 year) doesn’t really make the people happy. Oakland’s streets proved as much.
“But if what Ramos said was recorded, it suggests he acted with malice.”
It was recorded. T-Rack calls the verbal threat the turning point. Comparing the conduct reports between Ramos and Cicinelli uncontroversially reveals that Cicinelli was much more brutal. Ramos, not excusing his criminal actions, grabbed Thomas twice by the arm, swung his baton (unclear it contact was made) used his weight to pin down Thomas, and punched him in the ribs. Cicinelli, according to the DA, didn’t hear the verbal threat, nor did the others who arrived later on the scene, but brutalized Thomas with taser shocks, taser pistol whips to the head and other horrifying acts of violence. Yet, he faces a maximum of 4 years in prison and no 2nd degree murder charge. I’m just trying to wrap my head around that (and how the other officers on the scene are cleared because they didn’t hear Ramos’ threat and got in on the action allegedly not knowing what Thomas’ brutalized body illustrated to anyone of conscious)
Gabriel San Roman wrote:
>> “But I’ve already told you that I believe the Oakland DA’s attempt
>> to prosecute Mehserle on a 2nd degree murder charge was
>> completely bogus; they knew he would not be convicted on it.”
>
> Contrary to placating public anger, putting a 2nd degree murder
> charge on Mehserle that in your estimation of the DA knew he
> wasn’t going to be convicted of, could have been said to be
> something that would actually inflame temperament. Getting the
> public’s hopes high and going with a lesser charge and a light
> sentence (1 year) doesn’t really make the people happy.
> Oakland’s streets proved as much.
Your point is well taken.
I did think about the possibility the Oakland DA charged Mehserle with 2nd degree murder because they actually believed the charge would stick. I also thought they may have done it just to win the lesser charge–which is possible given the difficulties of prosecuting cops. But I am somewhat skeptical of that.
Criminal law sets forth strict guidelines juries have to follow in establishing guilt or innocence. The DA usually carefully reviews them before deciding to bring a case to trial. And when DA’s overcharge, they sometimes face a serious dilemma: jurors will simply acquit a defendant on some or all charges because the facts don’t “fit” those guidelines.
For example, if sober person with a clean driving record caused a “fender bender” that caused no injuries to anybody, would it make sense for a DA to file criminal charges for reckless driving and attempted murder? The odds are good the prosecutor wouldn’t never ever be able to win a conviction because the facts don’t “fit” the guidelines.
And why not? The guidelines to establish guilt or innocence must be based on a certain body of facts. If this certain body of facts don’t “fit” these pre-established guidelines, the jury will most likely acquit the defendant on one or more charges. When a DA overcharges, they’re basically asking a jury to fit a square peg in a round hole.
In respect to Mehserle, the Oakland DA filed two charges: the 2nd degree murder charge and involuntary manslaughter. In my opinion, the Oakland DA knew beforehand it could not win a 2nd degree murder charge, but filed it anyway and had this “show trial” to appease public anger and avert further civil unrest. We’ll never know to what extent it actually did this
But given the fact the Oakland DA’s office was under an enormous amount of political pressure to act, it had to do something–anything– to diffuse the situation. So like a safety-valve releasing steam, it decided it was better to try Mesherle on a much greater charge and deal with the consequences of that decision later, hoping things would cool down.
It did not surprise me in the least bit that jurors acquitted Mehserle on 2nd degree murder, but guilty on the involuntary manslaughter. I suspect the reason they did this is because the evidence prosecutors presented did not fit the strict guidelines the jurors had to follow to establish guilt for 2nd degree murder; it did for involuntary manslaughter, however.
>> “But if what Ramos said was recorded, it suggests he acted
>> with malice.”
>
> It was recorded. T-Rack calls the verbal threat the turning
> point. Comparing the conduct reports between Ramos and
> Cicinelli uncontroversially reveals that Cicinelli was much
> more brutal. Ramos, not excusing his criminal actions,
> grabbed Thomas twice by the arm, swung his baton (unclear
> it contact was made) used his weight to pin down Thomas,
> and punched him in the ribs. Cicinelli, according to the DA,
> didn’t hear the verbal threat, nor did the others who arrived
> later on the scene, but brutalized Thomas with taser
> shocks, taser pistol whips to the head and other horrifying
> acts of violence. Yet, he faces a maximum of 4 years in
> prison and no 2nd degree murder charge. I’m just trying to
> wrap my head around that (and how the other officers on
> the scene are cleared because they didn’t hear Ramos’
> threat and got in on the action allegedly not knowing what
> Thomas’ brutalized body illustrated to anyone of conscious)
I don’t yet know all the details, but maybe the Orange County DA didn’t prosecute the officers who aided Cicinelli and Ramos because he felt they thought that Kelly Thomas was violently resisting arrest.
Understand that police have a license to kick, beat, maim, and kill if necessary to enforce the law and maybe they thought they were legitimately performing those duties in subduing Thomas.
Another possibility is that the officers who weren’t prosecuted might be called to the witness stand by the OC DA to testify against Cicinelli and Ramos. I seriously doubt it, but who knows?
In respect to Cicinelli, if it is true that he shot a Taser dart into the chest of Kelly Thomas–in violation of operating procedures–that makes him complicit in his death. But does it mean he acted with malice?
Ramos allegedly set off a chain of events that led to Thomas’ death. Under criminal law, I believe Ramos, not Cicinelli bears the brunt of responsibility for this, even though the latter used more force.
I suppose Cicinelli could be charged with 2nd degree murder if it can be shown he acted with malice. Given criminal law has strict guidelines for establishing guilt, it is possible the OC DA doesn’t have the evidence.
We’ll see when this goes to trial, won’t we?
“In respect to Cicinelli, if it is true that he shot a Taser dart into the chest of Kelly Thomas–in violation of operating procedures–that makes him complicit in his death. But does it mean he acted with malice?”
According to the penal codes, there are two forms of malice “express” and “implied.” The latter simply holds that the act was committed intentionally/deliberately with knowledge that such would be dangerous to human life. Cicinelli arrived, according to the DA’s investigations, when Wolfe and Ramos had Thomas on the ground.
The taser “pistol whipping” (8 strikes to the head) as T-Rack said occurred with no audible response from Thomas. He was pinned down throughout all of Cicinelli’s use of force. T-Rack also said in his press conference that this lack of verbal response should have indicated to the officer that Thomas was seriously hurt.
Fealty is paid to legalese, but the illustration of violence that holds Cicinelli striking an unresponsive victim with his taser multiple times, in my opinion, warrants a harsher charge.
As to the other four officers not being charged because they happened on a scene where they knew not the circumstances and Ramos’ threat of violence…I think the pool of blood forming around an unresponsive man says otherwise. Unlike the other three, Wolfe was there from the beginning.
I agree. It’s relieving that the DA pressed charges AND released detailed findings – as they said in their new policy that if charges were warranted, no details would be released – but this is just the first step of many to receive justice, if any, for Kelly.
In any case, its not just Bushala & Co. that kept the pressure on but also the persistent protesters and supporters aka Kelly’s Army- who have come from OC and beyond to speak out against this injustice. I think while FFFF goes down on the recall road, Kelly’s Army will still be rallying for justice.
I brought up the Mehserle case as a caution that a charge is not a conviction. To the charges themselves, the conduct reports show Cicinelli to have been the most violent one, yet he is out on bail and not facing 2nd degree murder charges. Ramos has the most serious charges and is not out on bail. The other four remain without any charges
There’s plenty of unanswered questions, so I’m not going to sing T-Rack’s praises. Duane, you call these overcharges. In a sense, they are, given how things usually go down in OC. In the end, as with the Mehserle case, I expect justice, in its truest terms, to be circumvented. Yes, whatever results are just window dressing for the system.
Amber: yeah, big ups to Kelly’s Army!
Gabriel San Roman wrote:
> There’s plenty of unanswered questions, so I’m not going to
> sing T-Rack’s praises. Duane, you call these overcharges.
> In a sense, they are, given how things usually go down in OC.
> In the end, as with the Mehserle case, I expect justice, in its
> truest terms, to be circumvented.
In respect to the Mehserle case, I wouldn’t consider his actions 2nd degree murder, but more along the lines of criminal negligence. I don’t think the evidence is there to prove he intended to kill Grant. I think the Oakland DA knew that as well, but prosecuted him anyway on the higher charge to appease an angry public and prevent civil unrest.
I’m actually surprised Mehserle got any prison time because the jury could have acquitted him given the burden of proof for 2nd degree murder is incredibly high. In my opinion, Mehserle was reckless in his handling of his service revolver: he didn’t intend to kill Grant because he thought he was reaching for his Taser.
In respect to Kelly Thomas, I don’t yet know enough details about the case that “T-Rack” has supposedly built against the two officers. Although it is quite clear to me the amount of force used to take Thomas into custody was quite excessive. It is possible that a 2nd degree Murder charge is quite warranted.
“In my opinion, Mehserle was reckless in his handling of his service revolver: he didn’t intend to kill Grant because he thought he was reaching for his Taser.”
Wow, you bought that defense?
gabriel san roman wrote:
> Wow, you bought that defense?
It’s not an issue of me “buying” the defense arguments. It is an issue of whether or not evidence existed to convict him of 2nd Degree murder. To me, this was a case of involuntary manslaughter or criminal negligence.
Whatever one may think of the legal system, there are explicit rules that jurors have to follow to determine guilt or innocence of a defendant. In a 2nd Degree murder case, you have to prove malice.
I don’t think every police officer who whips out their service revolver necessarily did so with the intent of purposefully killing somebody. People do make horrible mistakes. It is much worse when a cop does it.
There is absolutely no doubt upon my mind that the Oakland DA knew beforehand that a 2nd Degree murder charge would never stick against Mehserle. This was a “show trial” to protect the system.
I told people during Mehserle’s trial the Oakland DA is charging him with 2nd Degree murder charge for only political reasons; that once it gets in the hands of jurors, he’ll be acquitted of it. And he was.
I’m surprised he got any jail time. But the jurors had the option of punishing him on an involuntary manslaughter charge, which in my opinion, was what he should have been charged with in the first place.
In respect to Kelly Thomas, this is a different ballgame. But I don’t take Orange County DA’s criminal charges against the officers seriously since he has turned a blind eye to abusive cops for years.
In addition, the people in power in Fullerton–namely the Police Chief and certain City Council members–have turned a blind eye to their heavy-handed police force for years. They too should be sent to jail.
Well, the family and a good majority of the Oakland community disagrees with you
The majority in a community isn’t always right.
Duane, before you continue to put the abbreviation “T-Rack” in quotes as though it were an inappropriately chummy nickname … try typing “Rackauckas.” You see? It’s as physically painful as typing “Chmielewski.”
Gabriel San Roman wrote:
> Well, the family and a good majority of the Oakland
> community disagrees with you
I’m not trying to win a popularity contest.
I’ve never seen any evidence showing that Mehserle pulled out his service revolver with the intent of killing Grant. What he did was incredibly incompetent, but not malicious. That doesn’t mean I think he shouldn’t be held accountable for what he did. I do think the involuntary manslaughter charge was quite appropriate.
Like I said, I believe the Oakland DA’s charge of 2nd Degree murder was bogus from the very start. But they needed a “show trial” to appease an angry public and prevent further civil unrest. What better way to do that than scapegoat a dumb cop. Great way to divert attention away from the rich white people who plunder us all.
The Kelly Thomas case is a whole different ballgame. There may be evidence to suggest that the 2nd Degree murder charge filed against one of the officers is wholly warranted. That’s good. But I also would like to see the “Three Blind Mice” on the Fullerton City Council go to jail too. Maybe “T-Rack” can move in to an adjacent cell.
Vern Nelson wrote:
> Duane, before you continue to put the abbreviation “T-Rack” in
> quotes as though it were an inappropriately chummy nickname …
I seriously thought about using “Tyrannosaurus Rex” when I made reference to the Orange County DA. But since that was my favorite dinosaur in kindergarten, I scratched that.
“Like I said, I believe the Oakland DA’s charge of 2nd Degree murder was bogus from the very start. But they needed a “show trial” to appease an angry public and prevent further civil unrest. What better way to do that than scapegoat a dumb cop. Great way to divert attention away from the rich white people who plunder us all.”
Civil unrest happened after the verdict anyway. Some scheme. People of color were entitled to their outrage from beginning to end. I don’t assume that their attention and others was “diverted.” This is a very real, long standing problem in the community.
“The Kelly Thomas case is a whole different ballgame. There may be evidence to suggest that the 2nd Degree murder charge filed against one of the officers is wholly warranted.”
One could say, well Ramos’ threat “these fists are getting ready to fuck you up” does not = intent to kill. Whole different ballgame? Same old shit.
Gabriel San Roman wrote:
> Civil unrest happened after the verdict anyway. Some scheme.
If the Oakland DA’s “show trial” hadn’t taken place, who says the civil unrest may not have been more widespread and more intense? We really don’t know now, do we?
> People of color were entitled to their outrage
> from beginning to end. I don’t assume that their attention
> and others was “diverted.” This is a very real, long standing
> problem in the community.
I’m aware that. But the evidence just isn’t there to support the contention that Mehserle willfully and deliberately intended to kill Oscar Grant. Does that mean I’m happy about Grant losing his life? No. Should people not be upset about what happened? No. The whole thing is a tragedy.
And I still think this case was a diversion. The Oakland DA tries to fry a dumb low-level transit cop; but it does nothing to people higher up in the system who not only plunder us all, but maintain their exploitation through institutionalized state violence. And that’s a typical DA for you: go after minnows, but never the whales.
> One could say, well Ramos’ threat “these fists are getting
> ready to fuck you up” does not = intent to kill. Whole different
> ballgame? Same old shit.
As you know, I did not write that.
And if Ramos said that to Kelly Thomas, it strongly suggests he acted with malice–a key component needed to convict him on a 2nd Degree murder charge.
But I’d like to see most of the Fullerton City Council and its Police Chief go to jail since they’ve turned a blind eye to their heavy-handed cops for many years.
They’re just as complicit.
“If the Oakland DA’s “show trial” hadn’t taken place, who says the civil unrest may not have been more widespread and more intense? We really don’t know now, do we?”
A fatal shooting of a man on his back filmed by numerous people…there had to be a trial.
“I’m aware that. But the evidence just isn’t there to support the contention that Mehserle willfully and deliberately intended to kill Oscar Grant.”
I disagree.
“And if Ramos said that to Kelly Thomas, it strongly suggests he acted with malice–a key component needed to convict him on a 2nd Degree murder charge.”
Question: Why didn’t the DA charge Cicinelli with 2nd degree murder? Ramos’ violent threat was recorded, but Cicinelli actually carried most of it out based on the conduct reports.
Gabriel San Ramon wrote:
> A fatal shooting of a man on his back filmed by numerous
> people…there had to be a trial.
I’m not saying there shouldn’t have been a trial.
But I’ve already told you that I believe the Oakland DA’s attempt to prosecute Mehserle on a 2nd degree murder charge was completely bogus; they knew he would not be convicted on it.
That’s was the “show trial”.
>> “I’m aware that. But the evidence just isn’t there to support
>> the contention that Mehserle willfully and deliberately intended
>> to kill Oscar Grant.”
>
> I disagree.
Fine.
> Question: Why didn’t the DA charge Cicinelli with 2nd
> degree murder? Ramos’ violent threat was recorded, but
> Cicinelli actually carried most of it out based on the conduct
> reports.
I don’t all the details yet.
But if what Ramos said was recorded, it suggests he acted with malice.
Amber wrote:
> In any case, its not just Bushala & Co. that kept the pressure on but
> also the persistent protesters and supporters aka Kelly’s Army- who
> have come from OC and beyond to speak out against this injustice.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you. And the internet also played a crucial role in helping mobilize large groups of people to engage in activities to put pressure on “T-Rack”–whether it be protests, marches, letter writing campaigns, phone calls, or what not.
But in my opinion, race and class played a very important role here in determining how this case was dealt with. Kelly Thomas was the son of a privileged white man–an ex-Sheriff’s Deputy–who had ties and connections with people with money and political power.
Sometime around 1998, I was with a group of people who met “T-Rack” to discuss a police shooting case in Santa Ana that resulted in a death of a young unemployed male of Mexican ancestry. The guy was shot in the head by a cop who claimed he did it in self-defense.
Think “T-Rack” did much of anything with this case? Despite numerous witnesses alleging the cop shot the man in cold blood, investigators conducted few interviews. In the Thomas case, it sounds like the DA sent an army of them out to look under every rock for witnesses.
Duane, you are classical juror who acquits cops no matter what.
With the people like you, Kelly will never get any justice in the court room.
“From the Exile” wrote:
> Duane, you are classical juror who acquits cops no matter what.
Say what?
Been drinking again, Stanley?
Don’t puff any “Mary Jane” now, do ya?
> With the people like you, Kelly will never get any justice in the
> court room.
Nah, don’t worry.
Every time I get called for jury duty, I usually get kicked out of the courtroom before a trial even starts.
I have a B.A. degree in Criminology from UCI.
Neither the prosecutor or defense wants me.
“I have a B.A. degree in Criminology from UCI”…….. Hmmmm
I have a BS degree in Political Science from CCCR
Center for Colon Cancer Research?
I just assumed since you’re such an ass.
I agree factors of race and class had a lot to do with it. A lot of public support was rallied due to these factors. There was a combination of factors that led to what happened to Kelly and the aftermath of the public spectacle – but that’s a whole post within itself right there. In the end we all know what happened to Kelly – among others who have suffered police brutality- is just wrong and there is hope that perhaps, if anything, this will shed a light on other cases in OC – past and future.
Amber wrote:
> there is hope that perhaps, if anything, this will shed a light on
> other cases in OC – past and future.
Agreed.
Sounds like a good outcome. Going after the cops that came on scene as backup after the brutal assault had occurred would not be justified – they apparently did not participate in or witness that assault at all, according to the DA. Makes those who called for them all to be indicted and/or fired appear to have succumbed to mob hysteria and shows that the wait for a full investigation to be done was appropriate. However, if there is hard evidence they participated in or witnessed the beating, that would be another story.
That’s not what happened. Final four rolled up as Cicinelli was going to town on Kelly’s head.
And the idea that Wolfe didn’t know what was going on is laughable. Ramos had Kelly on the curb for over 15 minutes as Wolfe alleged searched his backpack out of sight of Ramos.
Completely unbelievable. As he joined in Wolfe joined the beat down too with absolutely no cause to do so.
While I applaud the charges, I can’t help but have a bad feeling about this. Is an Orange County jury REALLY going to convict a cop of first-degree murder? Is T-Rack making a calculated bet that a jury would convict on a lesser charge like manslaughter or second-degree murder, yet likely acquit on first-degree murder? Food for thought.
And I do think the bystander cops should have some sort of accessory charge thrown at them.
My bad…Ramos is indeed being charged with second-degree murder, not first-degree.
Lots of people get credit for facilitating this (Councilmembers Quirk-Silva and to a lesser extent Whittaker, for example), but one person gets the most: Kelly Thomas’s father, Ron. Releasing that graphic, disgusting, debasing, humiliating photo of the face of his beaten-to-death son made this much harder to hide than the usual case. That was the picture worth a thousand words — and that will cost Fullerton millions of dollars and (hopefully) persuade it to improve the training and performance of its police force. Maybe the other 4 cops didn’t do anything criminally wrong (I don’t know), but they could have saved the city plenty of money by pulling them off of Thomas before they killed him.
Greg,
Can you please explain your comment, “to a lesser extent Whittaker”.
Bruce was the first member of the Fullerton City Council to stand up and speak out about this. He did not sit back and wait for the media stampede to have his voice be heard.
Bruce is a stand up guy and I would like to understand where your comment was coming from.
Thanks.
Right. Whitaker was two weeks ahead of Sharon.
If he did speak out first, I’m happy to hear and to acknowledge it. I don’t think it made the news generally. (I acknowledge that it may have been on certain blogs that I would not have seen.) Quirk-Silva’s calling for the resignation of the Chief of Police, by contrast, did seem to get broader coverage, and that is the basis for my statement.
Again, if the archives of news outlets with much readership show otherwise, I’m happy to acknowledge it, but this is what I recall being reported. No insult to Whittaker intended.
I’ve spoken to Sharon and Bruce both, and they were both working behind the scenes to get some action and accountability within a couple days of the event. One of them may have made a public statement sooner than the other, but it’s not a competition. They both did their jobs conscientiously.
To a lesser extent??
Didn’t Bruce Whitaker attend the memorial service?
I am certain that Sharron Quirk-Silva chose to leave Washington DC (Loretta Sanchez’s wedding reception) ONLY after seeking a political consultants advice. This of course was the meeting that erupted, making that $450 per hour fee worth it!
They both are to be commended, but get it right Diamond.
Certainty must come easy to you. Do you have any basis for it?
I’ve addressed the basis for my understanding in comments above.
P.S. Unlike Nevada’s Ms. Angle, this Sharon’s first name has one “r”.
I overlooked mentioning that the Council needs to be held accountable for a culture withiin the PD, and perhaps city government in general, in which such behavior occurs. Something deeper is wrong than just one or two bad apples.
Well, old friend, Fullertonians have that well in hand; you may have noticed there’s a recall on of the three culpable councilmen.
“Been around a while” wrote:
> I overlooked mentioning that the Council needs to be held
> accountable for a culture withiin the PD, and perhaps city
> government in general, in which such behavior occurs.
> Something deeper is wrong than just one or two bad apples.
You’re absolutely correct.
It all starts at the top.
This is horrifying.
But – let me put it this way, when those guys hit prison, they won’t remain anal-retentive for very long…
Good post Vern. Do I need to go to Lib OC to see if theyve covered this yet? Im guessing they havent. But Ill go look anyway. Im not holding much hope for it.
If these COPs will walk it is stupidity of the people serving on jury and voting in election.
Noting will change in the country where majority of population has a diminished IQ and education and favor liberal left unions.
Do not forget that it was German Worker’s Party Unions which rounded up 14 millions people into the concentration camps.
*First off…mega-dittos to Sean Mill…..we agree 100% Interestingly, Tony senses
the urgency in this matter and will be the lead prosecutor and DA for State in the trial proceedings. This means that this case has huge heft Statewide and Nationally.
Whatever happens is going to be watched with great scrutiny by both politicians and the public. Little chance that Ramos is going to get away with a mere slap on the paw.
All six should have been summarily fired after the incident. The Chief failed, the City Council failed and only the public seemed to sense how truly tragic this incident was for both Kelly and for every kid….that lives with earshot of the abuse and vicious attack.
There are truly lots of great cops. One of the six participants needed to step up that night. No one did….that we know of. This is another Rodney King thing….only worse.
We are very pleased that Tony R rose to the occasion and hopefully he will finish this case exactly the same way. To the Bushala….dude….good to know you!
Lets be real the only reason t-rac is behaving the way he is right now and acting like he cares is because everybody is watching and not to far off in the future he’s going to be facing a real challenger in the next election. Am I the only one who sees this?
No doubt, Jose. Whatever it takes to get a politician to do the right thing though.
Uh, Did anyone see the Fullerton City Counsel meeting last night? The City had the Police dressed like stormtroopers in the event a riot took place. T-Rack got the message that “Heads on a stick” would definitely be the the ending to this if he sat on his fat ass and did nothing. He’s too busy getting hand jobs from Susan schroeder while eating triple cheese pizza’s instead of watching out for the citizens.
If these Barbaric human excrements get off. It will be the Rodney King riots all over again.
BTW After the State of Georgia killing Troy Davis tonight. I’m one pissed off citizen right now. And this story gives me (some) hope justice can still happen.
To all those of you who worship at the altar of Tony Bushala understand one thing and one thing only……Tony Bushala doesn’t do anything for anyone that is not in the end self-serving. He is using all of you to further his political agenda and gain influence in city politics.
Where was Tony Bushala and for that matter everyone else including Thomas’ father when he was roaming the streets homeless and hungry?????
By the way, you have in youir fearless leader the BIGGEST Anti-Semite who believes that the Holocaust never happened. But if it can be spun for political gain, who knows???? Tony does not care for anyone but himself and his agenda. I hope Freydel took him for everything he’s got!!
Wow, nice folks we have here. But you’re not even reading you own press releases closely!
“Tony Bushala doesn’t do anything for anyone that is not in the end self-serving”….. Hmmmm
That is how individualism should work!
If everyone would be like Tony Bushala, everyone would be taken care off and there wouldn’t be no losers so the leftist liberals wouldn’t need to take care of them.
However, here we go again!
The loser dug out Anti-Semite and the Holocaust…. obviously his entire argument must be a crapola.
still got to go to trial.
Cook,
I think that now your 10 story high court house building trial proposal make actually a sense.
Why is “intent to kill” even being mentioned in the posts re: whether or not Mehserle intended to kill Grant or not?
I thought intent was irrelevant in such a case.
Intent is everything in our system of criminal law. The “state of mind” determines the severity of punishment, if any, that is meted out against the offender.
For example, if you were involved in an auto accident that killed someone, should we let you walk away from the scene or prosecute you for murder and put you on death row?
Well that would depend, yes? Did witnesses see you deliberately causing an auto accident that caused somebody’s death? Did you know that person beforehand? Were you drunk?
Maybe you caused the accident with the intent of collecting insurance money on the deceased person? Or maybe the accident was caused because you were driving 100 miles an hour.
Another possibility might be the brakes your auto mechanic installed on your car that morning failed due to the fact one of the parts was rusted because it was left out in the rain.
Tony B and his Fx4 pals deserve credit but credit also needs to be given to…John and Ken, I believe their names are, of KFI 640 AM Radio for their constant coverage of this.
It feels silly giving out kudos this early, when the cops are still likely to get off with a slap on the wrist, but ok if we have to: Ron Thomas, Bushala and his band, Quirk-Silva and Whitaker, John & Ken, Kelly’s Army – in about that order.
(and of course with varying motives)
“(and of course with varying motives)”…….. Hmmmm
However, your Liberal Leftist motive is unwary so;
(…) John & Ken, Kelly’s Army, Vern Nelson – in about that order.
I’m surprised the Hispanic community isn’t up in arms with pitchforks and torches, decrying Ramos’ harsher sentence as “racist” due to the fact that he is Hispanic.
Maybe Hispanics aren’t very proud of the pinche bastard, eh?
Poor Stanley still can’t seem to grasp the English language. My 3rd grade ESL students write better………………………
*”colloguialisms”……these are things that Stanley has a tough time with. Harry Lime…on the other hand….has no problem with colloquialisms….but does have a tough time with ethics and and the meaning of honesty and forthright truth. These are things that are learned by immigrants that have to suffer. Harry Lime…never had to suffer enough. It is truly a sad commentary of a lost identify crisis. Sometimes American…sometimes a commie…..sometimes a liberal….sometimes a fascist. But then, who really cares? America is big enough for all the folks of Bill O’Reilly World. Maybe not Glen Beck…and certainly not Ben Bernanke! But then again….someone would actually have to care….wouldn’t they?
Tony Bushala is a hero. Tony R is a hero and Bruce Whiteaker is a hero. “They fought the law and law……didn’t win!”
I see that there is a name “Stanley” in your missive so I believe that you maybe talking about Stanley Fiala.
Based on my believe, I have sent a copy your missive to my peers in the MENSA to help me to evaluate it as a second opinion.
I will reply later.
*Harry Lime……please leave the stage. Exit stage left….and please do not come back until the intermission. Thank you in advance – for your understanding.
*Intermezzo then!
Give me the money to get out to Califorina from Ohio, and [deleted by editor.] I love how the justice system will just throw these two disgraces of the police force back on the streets. Don’t get me started on this fat slob Manuel Ramos. He will most likely be someones bitch in prison. These two deserve death, and I wish I could [deleted by editor.] I guess its better that they rot in jail though, and let the fact that they are huge pieces of shit sink into their skulls for the rest of their pathetic life’s.