.
.
.
These veterans came to Irvine on Monday evening to talk to residents who object to the construction of a Veterans Cemetery on this site of Irvine’s Great Park — the former Marine Air Base at El Toro.
They were turned away. While the site was a public space, they were told that it had been privately rented. One female veteran did gain access to the hall and was later removed. (There is no indication that her behavior was creating a disturbance.)
It’s difficult to prove discrimination in admission to such a meeting, but it is hard to escape the conclusion that people were admitted or excluded from the room based upon race and ethnicity. Many of us — hopefully close to all of us — would be incensed if Asians, Latinos, African-Americans were excluded from an open public meeting , even in a hall that had been rented privately, solely based upon these factors. For it to happen to everyone except members of a certain race or ethnicity is similarly disturbing.
Let’s backtrack bit and figure out how this happened.
[1] Back in the Orange Juice Archives, You’ll Find a Story or Two
On October 26, 2014, we published this story about a sudden pre-election intrigue taking place in Irvine, where an architect named Gang Chen was, well after the approval of the Veterans Cemetery, apparently spearheading a drive to reverse the Council’s decision to go ahead with it.
Treachery in Irvine? Chinese Language Documents Suggest Choi and Lalloway May Betray Veterans on Great Park Cemetery
Four days later, evidence emerged that a Planning Commissioner was telling Chinese-language newspapers in the area that the plan — already signed by the Governor and considered a “done deal” — could still be reversed.
Is Irvine Planning Commissioner Anthony Kuo Really Telling Chinese Papers That the Veterans Cemetery Can Be Stopped?
Then the election came, with Steven Choi winning re-election to the Mayor’s seat more narrowly than expected and Jeffrey Lalloway barely edging out his closest opponent to win re-election to the City Council. Gang Chen suggested that perhaps if he were retained as the architect for the site the problems would diminish. And there were occasional rumors that resistance to the plans was continuing, on the grounds that even a graveyard for heroes violated principles of feng shui and would lower the property values of neighbors (even if they couldn’t see it, hear it, or smell it from their homes.) And then, a couple of weeks back or so, all hell started to break loose.
[2] A Town Hall Meeting with the Mayor and the Cemetery’s Fiercest Opponent on the Council
This flyer began getting distributed — and cemetery proponents started getting concerned. What was going on?
The problem here wasn’t so much that the opponents of the cemetery were making the same old tired and baseless arguments. No, there’s no reason to think that a majority of Irvine residents oppose the cemetery; no, no adequate alternative site — meaning one that would pass muster with the Department of Veteran’s Affairs, has been located; no, there’s no reason to think that property values would go down. (In fact, it might attract a lot of veterans nationwide looking for a great place to retire.) It might cut into the expected profits of those who planned on using newly built houses for short-term rentals for people visiting from China — but that’s not the sort of constituency that cities normally strive to serve.)
No, the worrisome thing was that Mayor Choi and Councilwoman Lynn Schott were appearing at the event. Schott had replaced Larry Agran (who with veterans leader Bill Cook and former Assemblywoman Sharon Quirk-Silva were the main figures in taking the proposal from conception to enactment at an incredible speed) on the Irvine City Council. Choi and Christine Shea were both suspected of still wanting to please the developer Five Point, a renamed successor to the big developer Lennar.) This looked like an opportunity to have Choi and the “Orange County Residents Alliance” (OCRA, which was suspected of doing the bidding of Five Point) convince Schott to join him and Shea in figuring out some way to abort the proposal, without even needing Lalloway’s vote.
Veterans believed that there was nothing to be done — Irvine Council candidates and members campaigned on the issue and were happy to pose with Gov. Jerry Brown — but it was still disconcerting that the City’s leading politicians were acting otherwise. That soon changed.
[3] Schott and Choi Think Better of Attending
A message came out on Wednesday, June 3. Its authors did not sound happy.
Announcement from OCRA on Townhall Meeting Update
Councilwoman Lynn Schott had notified OCRA yesterday that she and Mr. Choi will not participate in the Townhall Meeting scheduled on June 8, 2015 at Cypress Village Community Center.
No written explanation or apology was given by Ms. Schott to OCRA for OCRA’s work and time spent on this TH efforts.
Although through a phone call and a third party blog site, we had learned that Ms. Schott cancelled the meeting due to her concern on others’ false interpretations on our event flyer, we are greatly disappointed in her no direct communication to us PRIOR to her decision and her unprofessionalism.
Our sincere apology for any troubles this may have caused you. We appreciate your joint-efforts with us in making the event known to others.
We will discuss and notify you in short orders on the possibility of keeping the meeting date/time/location with you all.
We will still be present at the meeting location the same date and time if you choose to come out to learn more details about the cemetery issue. We will provide any answers or details concerning the situation.
Thank you for your patience,
Sincerely,
OCRA
Emphasis in orange has been added. The public town hall meeting was still to go forward.
[4] Veterans Groups Get the Word
This message went out to veterans and their supporters on June 4:
- Have been officially advised by City of Irvine that the meeting facility for the ‘OCRA’ event that was to include Mayor Choi and Councilwoman Shott has been CANCELLED.
- Please spread the word. We do not know if this group has rescheduled or relocated. Or they will show up there anyhow.
- Will advise as we learn.
While Vets indicated their understanding that the meeting with Schott and Choi was cancelled, they weren’t sure whether there would still be a town hall event. Some of them decided to check for themselves.
[5] The Register Gets Word of the Controversey
On Friday, June 5, the Register came out with a story presenting the terms of the debate, part of which is excerpted below:
And a wild card emerged this week. Orange County Supervisor Todd Spitzer, who supports the veterans cemetery at the Great Park, said a 288-acre parcel near Anaheim Hills might serve as a cemetery where veterans could be buried.
But for Bill Cook, chairman of the Orange County Veterans Memorial Park Foundation and the man who has led the fight to put a cemetery on the former El Toro air base, the issue is just as sacred.
“That site represents. .. where thousands of American teenagers last stood alive on American soil,” said Cook, 68, a Mission Viejo resident and Vietnam War veteran who served at El Toro.
Cook and others who back the cemetery at the Great Park point to a future need. About 130,000 veterans live in Orange County, and nearly 1.9 million live in California. Most served in wars of the 20th century, including World War II, Korea and Vietnam.
I became involved with the group that Bill Cook chairs in January 2013 and continue working with them for much of the duration of the project being shepherded through the process. As a result, I know that the federal government has all sorts of requirements that a veterans cemetery site has to meet for it to be able to receive the federal funds that make this sort of development possible. Many alternative sites were presented over time that did not meet those requirements. It seems unlikely that a site in the hills would do so. And, regardless, such a site would not have the symbolic importance of Former MCAS El Toro. I don’t know who Supervisor Spitzer has discussed this with — but if it’s not the staff people in the State Legislature who know how the system works, he may be in for a rude surprise.
At any rate, you’ll note that the OCRA people said that they were going to show up anyway — and the veterans decided that this might be a good chance to meet and see if there was common ground between them.
They would not likely have guessed how little common ground there would be.
[6] Veterans Not Welcome
When the veterans arrived, they were told that they could not enter the event. (One woman veteran did enter the event, but was later removed.)
As Bill Cook tells the story, when he tried to enter the meeting he was turned away, being told that it was a “private party.” (This was despite the flyers that many people had when entering the building, stating that it was a “Town Hall” — in other words, an open public meeting.) Cook says that he was never asked if he was there for the meeting, but felt that he was excluded based on his non-Asian race. While some veterans did wear indicators of their veteran status, others, as you can see from the photos, were in street clothes and of multiple racial and ethnic backgrounds.
Cook says that the vets asked: “Your Veterans are outside, may we come in?” They received no invitation.
That was a surprise. Maybe there’s some exception out there of which I’m unaware, but if people were excluded from a public meeting (no matter who rented the room) based primarily on their race or ethnicity, that does not exactly seem legal. If there’s a specific list of invitees, that might work, but this seems to have been a meeting to which the general public was invited — and not one that specified a racial or ethnic requirement for attendees.
Note that nothing stopped then from holding the meeting in Mandarin or whatever other Chinese dialect or dialects they chose. The veterans were not in a position to force anyone to speak English in a public meeting, nor did they intend to try. But if they had been admitted inside the hall, they might have been positioned to make their own case to the homeowners — presumably in English — and at least invited questions.
The big question is: would they still have tried to pull this sort of stunt had Choi and Schott attending? That would have upped the stakes considerably.
[7] The Elephant in the Room
I’ve met enough with OCVMP persons to know that they have really not wanted this issue to become one about race and ethnicity. Some opponents of the Veterans Cemetery have argued that the conflict has nothing to do with feng shui — others, obviously, argue, that it has everything to do with feng shui. Feng shui is a Taoist belief (I will leave it to others to decide whether it rises to the level of being a “belief system.”) It may not itself be a religion, although it would seem to qualify as a creed. (As one commenter has pointed out, it’s interesting to think of how this might play out if the objection were based on the principles — also commonly held worldwide — of Sharia Law. Personally, I’d be objecting to it if it were based on principles that opponents claimed to be Christian, or perhaps just culturally Christian.)
I’m not aware of any precedent in the U.S. where a proposal of this size — presented for a usually popular patriotic purpose that is officially encouraged by federal law — has foundered on the shoals of feng shui. If it ever has, it has probably not been the case that the desired outcome of opponents just happens to be one also being pushed by an enormously wealthy developer who wants to become more so.
Even among critics, there is great disagreement about whether this is a feng shui issue or not. Contrast this story:
Residents of the American city of Irvine in California opposed the creation of a veterans cemetery on the former air force base El Toro. According to them, the idea of the authorities is contrary to the principles of Feng Shui. It is reported by The Orange Counry Register.
Almost 40 percent of the population of Irvine — came from Asia, where it is especially revered Taoist practice of development of space. In addition to concerns that the government’s plans will violate the harmony of the place, some residents also expressed concern that the views of the cemetery will cause a fall in property prices.
There are those who have a different point of view. So, a veteran of the Vietnam war, bill Cooke, who served on the base El Toro, actively advocates the establishment of a cemetery on the spot, “which became the last piece of American land for thousands of young Americans”.
In Irvine is home to more than 250 thousand people. In orange County, where the city, I live about 130 thousand veterans.
In 2014, California authorities approved the construction of this cemetery in the city. In the Ministry of veterans Affairs stated that it requires millions of dollars and Federal funding before July 2016 will not. Even if the money for this project will be allocated for its implementation will take years.
Feng Shui of Taoist practice of organizing space for favorable flows of life energy — qi. According to Feng Shui, burial near houses or schools — a constant reminder of the frailty of life.
with this affronted comment in a local Irvine-based blog:
This article lacks impartiality. Please refrain from referring to Chinese American residents as “Chinese,” as you do not know their citizenship status, which is unrelated to their language ability or insistence on feng shui . Also, diminishing the local resident’s perspective to “bad feng shui” exoticizes an ethnicity and cultural tradition that does not conflict with an American identity. Overall, I do not see how the original ethnicity of the local residents has anything to do with the “feng shui” argument, as people from different cultures have adopted this cultural tradition. After all, American identity is not synonymous with whiteness. Moreover, veterans include not only Caucasians, but Chinese Americans, and other Asian Americans as well. By positioning “Veterans” against “Chinese,” you are implying that the “Chinese” selfishly view their own property values as of greater importance than our soldier’s lives. However, local AMERICAN residents do have a vested interest in their community, especially if their investment is in their property. This situation is not ideal for anyone, but please, try to report this situation in a more politically correct way.
The author makes some valid points — but also some points that fly in the face of what actually happened yesterday. This group cites feng shui as the primary basis for their opposition; it’s why property values would supposedly go down. This isn’t being imposed externally as a means of “exoticizing” the group; it’s what they are saying. And in any event, if the people who sponsored last night’s not-so-open forum were themselves discriminating primarily by race and ethnicity, then apparently they do believe that such factors have something to do with the feng shui argument. Why else did they exclude people based on their appearance?
(As for “Chinese American” versus “Chinese” — the commenter is correct that we don’t know the citizenship status of the people involved. So why would we automatically default to calling them “Chinese Americans”? Based on property ownership? That’s not how it works.)
[8] Unanswered Questions
Bill Cook has some good questions to be answered.
1. Who and what is OCRA?
Cook says that they claim to be a non-profit, but that he can find nothing on them. One possibility, of course, is that OCRA is a front group set up by Five Points or Lennar (or their agents) to generate a way to keep the federal government from providing their expected funding.
2. Who rented the public facility in Irvine? What price did they pay?
Cook was told by the on-site office that it was rented for “Mr. Ding.” No one of that name seems to have been involved in OCRA.
3. Are the people protesting voters — or simply property owners from outside of Irvine?
Voters or permanent residents — of any race, ethnicity, religion, or creed — have a certain stake in how their own community is governed. People simply try to maximize profits from investments — especially by renting or leasing to people who aren’t citizens, permanent residents, or here on visas — may not have the same sort of claim on public policy.
I’ll add a question of my own:
4. How and by whom was the decision made to enforce the “right” the sponsoring organization to exclude people on any basis they wished? Did whoever enforced the rule check to see if it was being done on a constitutionally impermissible basis? Did they even care?
When the OC veterans weren’t let in the front door last night, a messy situation just got a lot messier. I’ll be that Mayor Choi and Councilwoman Schott are glad that they weren’t there. Now the question is — when they’re out of the public eye, will their dealings with this group change? It’s a fascinating fight brewing — and it’s unfortunate that the stakes are quite so high.
This whole ting i bullshit. The council a supervisor, the developer and others are caving into a group of foreigners who want to deny Veterans who have fought and died for this country that gives them the ability to buy these homes so they can take advantage of our schools for their kids. These people have no sweat equity, or blood equity in this country. The are using money that was made by the moving of our manufacturing jobs to their low wage labor markets then pull this shit? The Chinese should be banned from buying homes here.
Great work, Greg.
When Alan Bartlett and I get in front of the City Council to support a Larry Agran proposal -which we we did MULTIPLE TIMES — you know Irvine is pretty unified in support of the cemetery.
Paul Lucas you sound downright Republican. I like it.
I was going to say: “Paul Lucas, you sound downright bigoted. I don’t like it.”
No one is — or at least no one should be — saying that Chinese nationals should not be able to buy property in the Great Park area. Yes, a lot of this is due to our shipping jobs overseas — but the fault for that lies in OUR politicians who keep approving bad trade agreements, tax policies, etc. to serve the interests of OUR (or sort of “our”) corporations. I don’t blame these people for wanting to live here.
The question is simply whether their cultural (and at least quasi-religious) beliefs should dictate limits to very popular social policies here. And I answer that, without meaning to disparage them in the least, with “no it should not.”
(And if it turns out that this is an Irvine Astroturf organization drummed up by Five Points/Lennar, then I am going to reach new heights of contempt for them.)
OK I had missed Paul’s last sentence about Chinese not being able to buy here, which I disagree with.
But the rest of his statement is dead on, they are showing up and putting themselves up and over our Veterans and while no human being has more value than another if humanity has a hierarchy in the great spirit world, Veterans get to jump to the top of the heap. For any non-citizen to make demands of citizens is pretty arrogant, but to make demands upon a parcel of land NOT owned or controlled by the residents or developer who seem to bitch the loudest and to do so in opposition to Veterans is way out of line. Our OC Cem District did a survey recently, I am reposting some of the facts and percentages to show this is not an issue of concern for the general population.
Meh, Oh well fuck em i say. they don’t want a cemetery for Veterans on an old marine Air base they can go pound sand somewhere else.
I dont know how much world traveling youve done but if you try to go an buy property in other countries you are going to run into a shitload of problems meant to preserve the integrity of the land from foreigners altering it too much in any way. So I dont really care.
If the tables were turned and it was Americans wanting to deny a cemetery in China for their vets then they would probably kick the developers out of the country and just steal the damn land back.
…and here we go….
We have heard both Council member Shea and the opponents of the cemetery mention “impacts” regarding a burial site. WHAT IMPACTS? They don’t mean CEQA, aside from construction (which would come with ANY development) there is no impact from noise, air quality, etc. There are enormous technological tools available to cemetery professionals to greatly reduce water usage, likely below even residential uses. (Professionals closely monitor lawn/watering and use “fertigation” systems to strengthen lawn and force roots deeper into the soil for less water use while residential users overwater lawns…by a bunch.) So WHAT IMPACTS do they keep talking about?
http://www.dre.ca.gov/files/pdf/re6.pdf
The website for the Department of Real Estate does not appear to include a future cemetery as a material fact that must be disclosed to buyers. Why should they? A cemetery is the most quiet, well-behaved neighbor you will ever enjoy. The green space offers a fire-break and a sound buffer between something truly loud, obnoxious, and traffic inducing, like the schools proposed for the area. There is a jail in the area, try sneaking your orange jumpsuit across the green lawn without being picked up by the helicopter. Cemeteries are often wildlife habitats, offering the potential for bluebird boxes and other forms of habitat restoration that requires large open spaces to encourage species that are quickly dwindling from our area.
With all of the advantages that living near the final resting place of our loved ones offers, MOST PEOPLE do not consider a cemetery to negatively impact their home, and thus there is no basis for the claim that a cemetery affects resale value! A recent survey by Probolsky Research, (August 2013) showed 80.6% of the Orange County residents surveyed WOULD NOT BE BOTHERED by living near a cemetery! 64% said they would support the Orange County Cemetery District building a new cemetery in their community. I have to imagine support for our Veterans would be even higher than support for the general population’s dearly departed. The intensity of support for a cemetery nearby was measured at over twice the intensity of those opposed to new cemetery construction.
http://occd.commpro.com/images/occd/agendas/AgendaSept2013PartB.pdf
Of the 20% who were bothered by a cemetery nearby, 31.8% (of the 20%) said the problem could be mitigated with landscaping, and indeed even Feng Shui principles have mitigation techniques, such as building cremation niches on the edges, as the ashes of the departed have less “negative energy” than full casket remains, and offers a buffer zone of sorts. Incorporating water and other traditional Feng Shui design to neutralize negative chi are all well known and possible.
By the way, anyone concerned with the negative energy of a cemetery would also certainly be concerned by the previous use of the land their houses are sitting on. How much negative energy is generated by the ghosts of the young men and women who left that site and never returned? The site was integral to a WAR MACHINE. How is that for negative energy? AND moving the memorial park to the alternative site is likely to put graves into elevated or graded terrain, which means condemning the veterans graves to their own bad Feng Shui which traditionally means their own descendants may suffer lack of prosperity or depression and other impacts not deserved. Those who do not wish to live near the Veteran’s Cemetery are free to sell their homes, there is no evidence they will sell at a loss unless they trigger their own panic sale, and I would bet plenty of Vets would pay top dollar to be nearby. I personally would be honored to have a view of that Memorial Park but I lack the million bucks for a Five Points house.
While we talk about “nearby” I have seen publications in which Feng Shui practitioners say roughly 1,650 feet is the zone of “nearby” and if you look at the map it does not appear the two properties are that close. This hysteria may be for nothing. Back to the survey, of those who still opposed a cemetery “nearby, “those surveyed failed to even suggest they would pack up and leave their homes. 33.2% said they would post a comment to a blog or online publication, so the ranting online is likely the only real opposition the Veterans cemetery is ever going to see. Only 30.9% said they would bother contacting their elected officials (mind you this is 30% of the 20% who objected to begin with) 26.3% of the 20% opposed might attend a meeting, a few less would put a sign in their window. Packing up and moving out was not even suggested, nor was a recall of officials who supported such action.
While the survey did not cover political fallout for elected officials who undermined the development of a cemetery, one has to believe that gaining a reputation for reneging on a promise to American Veterans would have its own set of consequences far, far beyond that of some folks who might go so far as to attend a meeting or put a sign in their windows, against the development.
10% of respondents to the survey were Veterans, and 30% of respondents said that as veterans it was important to be buried in a Veterans Cemetery, with 21% saying it was VERY important.
By the way, while some are busy trying to balance yin, yang, and chi, they conveniently forget their bitch cousin, KARMA.
*Cynthia is right a lot. On this issue, she should understand that Veterans are not regular citizens. Our prime guess is that Cynthia is NOT a veteran. OK, we will not hold that against her ….just yet. But the whole cemetary thing goes like this:
Where is the Jewish-American Veteran Assn. that is out every Poppy Day, doing their business? Where are the guys UNDER 80 that have served our country and died or will die from their wounds. Where is the CEQA report that makes people understand that the area of the proposed Orange County Veterans Memorial Park at the El Toro site – has been polluted with 50 years of Aircraft Fuels, Solvents and Paints. Being buried their withour making the ground safe – would provide a horrible place to reside in the afterlife. The Mitigation required is going to be expensive, in order to make the ground safe for human burials and even for family and friends visiting that location. One thing is certain….those involved want to do things “on the cheap” for “big money” and “provide little in services” at the end of the trail. Some major issues that must be resolved starts with the deliniation of the Service Plots. Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard internees. How many of each? Which spots for which services? What Memorial statues and information will provide a map to those sites? Who will dedicate the area? Who is qualified to be buried there? As is done at Arlington, those who have served Honorably and with Distinction and with Medals for Valor get first priority. We believe that should be the case here. From our listening post……the bad guys were are presently trying to run things don’t want any of that. They want a Helter Skelter, Mish Mash….where if you have a Discharge of any kind you get to be buried there as long as there is space. This cannot stand. This should not stand. This seems to be a typical Orange County FUBAR situation….which in the end results in nothing. The proposed Airship Museum for all Services in Tustin is a brilliant example – of how developers land grab and leave the citizens nothing but nodding doggies in the window. They are even going to use Demolition of one of the two Historic Airship Blimp Hangers in Tustin by the District. No, we veterans do not get our Historic Four Service Military Museum either. This burial site issue must be taken seriously enough that the Board of Supervisors and the State of California and the Veterans Associations all need join hands and devised a very well thought out plan – (which can stand the muster of public scrutiny!) and put a time table and Budget Structure for implementation. The City of Irvine can only be required to do ONE Thing – Approve the area as a concept. They need not be involved in the finalization of the plan or even the access roads. The County Planners need to take the lead in this. That plan would be approved by the Veterans Administration of the State of California. The Federal Government should be approached to bless the project and perhaps assist in finding funds for another Preliminarily Endorsed National Cemetary. We need to make this a big deal…..not our typical cheap ass pot bellied stove thinking. We want the Italian American Veterans too! We want the Phillipine Veterans too! We want the Buffalo Soliders too! We want something we can be proud of………in the wonderful City of Irvine, California.
Winships, it sounds as if one or both of you may be veterans, in which case I thank you for your service. You are correct that I have not served my nation in this capacity. I have two flags folded triangularly in their wooden cases, believe me I have an emotional stake in this issue, while it is too late for those the flags belonged to, it permits other local families to have a place of respect and remembrance.
Also for full disclosure the Orange County Cemetery District, where I serve on the Board of Trustees, has offered to operate the Memorial Park for the Veterans, should they need that local connection. I believe our Board will support the cemetery no matter where it is located, and should they use a back-up plan by Spitzer or anyone else we will do all we can to help them, with or without an agreement to operate it, simply because it is the right thing to do. We have also been aiding the group with access to our own research and professional knowledge, as we have spent years trying to locate land for the expansion of our own services to constituents, and we have learned a great deal about what type of land is suitable for a burial site, what needs to be done to prep property for this specialized use, what kind of zoning must one seek or have changed to, etc. No reason for the Vets to reinvent the process when we have the instruction manual already done. But I have no economic interest in the issue other than an emotional desire to help men and women I greatly respect. So that is my interest in the issue despite my lack of service.
I would like to clear up a few false notions that have been put out there regarding the obstacles to this development.
Pollution on THIS particular site is minimal, there are certainly places around the former base that are/were polluted to high Heaven, not only were pollutants “buried” in containers they were poured out without containers of any kind, along with the plume of aircraft exhaust repeatedly laying down a film over and over again from take offs etc. But for whatever reason this section was not as impacted and the City of Irvine confirmed that during one of many meetings, staff flat out said there wasn’t much to deal with beyond a top soil trade out of minimal levels.
The clean up is NOT expected to be prohibitively expensive, and FIVE POINTS DEVELOPMENT already committed to doing the clean up and terraform for the site, an offer they put in writing and gave to the City and the Veterans’ group, before the opposition made the partnership uncomfortable. By the way I have copies of these public records and will try to scan them for posting.
“….those involved want to do things “on the cheap” for “big money” and “provide little in services” at the end of the trail.” I have no idea what this means. Perhaps you can elaborate, please?
There is a set standard for California state Veterans Cemeteries which is what this will be, as it is too geographically close to Riverside to qualify for National status.The design of the site and the designation of who may and may not be buried here will adhere to that standard, so your statement below makes no sense to me, who do you believe to be the “bad guys presently trying to run things?” Not the Veterans’ group, I hope, as Bill Cook and his compatriots are some of the finest gentlemen I have ever had the honor of knowing.
“…the bad guys were are presently trying to run things don’t want any of that. They want a Helter Skelter, Mish Mash….where if you have a Discharge of any kind you get to be buried there as long as there is space. This cannot stand. This should not stand.”
Yes, anyone entitled to Veterans burial benefits may be buried in a Veterans’ cemetery, that is how it already works at Riverside and Miramar. Veterans receive free burial benefits, spouses and dependent children receive burial benefits at cost (the direct cost of providing service must be calculated and no more than that cost is to be charged) plus I believe endowment care funds are collected from all burials, which I think is not the case with a National cemetery. Being careful to say “I think or I believe” as i don’t want to mislead and am not authorized to speak on behalf of anyone, just sharing what I can recall, based on public records.
Your call for a timetable and budget structure is all in process as we speak, there is no rush to make something public as the land is under a development delay until 2017, so right now the process is for the State to use the $500K they pledged from Vet funds to draft a grant application to the Feds, for money to professionally design and develop the site (and yes some Feng Shui based mitigation CAN be worked into the design as long as the final layout adheres to the standard for military burial grounds which is set by the VA) As far as the Federal money, it is there waiting for the guys to use it, it is theirs, paid for by their service and set aside for their burials, where it goes is irrelevant, and the agency providing the grants has only declined ONE in anyone’s memory, and that one was rejected because the app was not properly filled out.
So the obstacles claimed by opponents simply do not exist on the level used to incite panic and confusion, and the “look! a squirrel!” game being played by some is unfair at best and fraudulent if intentional. It is also downright mean to do when the Vets worked their butts off to get much farther in the process than any of us expected them to, to now pull the rug out and renege on promises made. If it turns out those promises are being broken to make a bunch of citizens from another nation happy with their investment properties, it is as unAmerican as it gets.
Again, Winships, thank you for your service (if I read this correctly?) and if you would like to speak directly to the veterans’ group I can put you in touch with Bill Cook who can offer much more info.
Also I have bumper stickers for those who wish to support the Veterans Memorial Park at the Great Park, contact me with a name and mailing address and I will get one or more to you.
*Cynthia, thank you for your detailed response. One thing about you….you are certainly detail orientated which is always attractive. “Scope” we suppose is the major word and we have chatted briefly with Cook. Nice guy just not so forthcoming and he is not alone. Everyone wants to be in charge and that certainly is the problem….not the solution. The Board of Supervisors has already bought off on the Memorial Park at the location and should have the oversight in the planning process, working with the State and Feds regarding making it follow the general parameters of all National Cemetaries. However, we should be shooting for being the best National Cemetary not just the proverbial nodding doggie in the window…..”Oh, that’s fine!” routine. Yes, we are veterans and from the the Vietnam Era….July 67 to July 69…..2nd Armored Cav. Life Member of the 2nd Cavalry Assn., So, we have a fish on the barbie when it comes to knowing about the many sacrifices our veterans have endured. We suppose, the biggest problem we have with this process again….is the fact that Different Services should have their own areas. Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard. This actually takes planning and execution rather than: “If we build it…..they will come!” mentality. The Service Fraternity is a biggie. Just ask any Marine. Just ask any VFW member. This is a complex issue and when they had to bury our great Walt Ehlers in Riverside…..rather than Arlington or our own Memorial Park…..that was offensive…..at least in our eyes. You only get to plan the process ONCE. Once you begin planting folks in ground, the planning process seems to go out the window. Let’s just take one isolated example: Veterans that have been cremated. You need a central location which separates the various Services even in that area. You need Reflection Areas for each Service. You need to know that people will be able to find their way back to their loved one’s grave or location every time they return….without checking at the front desk. Yep, you need an Admin Center to help people find their way around. Waving your hand and saying “that will all be taken care of later” is unacceptable. Let’s just say…we have seen this play before and it doesn’t always come out with glowing reviews. A little more planning on the front end will yield greater rewards at the back end….we believe. What about the Fountains?….you have those planned too! The Guest Book at the Admin Building? Volunteer military docents to escort family members? Are we getting the point yet?
Mr. Ron Winship .What time frame on establishing and completeing a veteran cemetery at the Great Park in Irvine is acceptable in your opinion .Five years? Ten years ? 20 years? There are plenty of examples of veteran cemeteries , private and public cemeteries to look at to design it from, plan it and get it done right at posthaste speed.
I am concerned that the process of implementing the Irvine veteran cemetery location will get bogged down in a morass of bureaucratic government political correctness rhetoric and design factors including foreign national’s cultural concerns. I believe that foreign nationals no matter what country they are from need to be informed of , educated about and more sensitive to the cultural history of the United States of America and why and how U.S. citizens honor our U.S. military veterans and their families sacrifice.
A final resting place is only one significant way we honor our veteran’s service and sacrifice to our country.The feng shui situation and what other issues such as the department of veteran affairs requirements for a veteran cemetery are easily resolved. Hire a feng shui expert if necessary.
I don’t agree with your opinion that we need to separate our departed military veterans by service branch. All military veterans are my fellow soldiers in arms and I would welcome them interned by me. I agree a welcome center should be included similar to Arlington National Cemetery in Washington D.C. I have a family member that was buried in Arlington National with full honor guard ceremonies. Myself and my family attended and It was very moving and impressive. I think volunteer docents is a good idea. I bet we have plenty of veterans that would love to be a docent.
As for the argument of declining home values I really doubt that.I don’t see any mass exodus from the city of Irvine any time soon. Gee, maybe Five Point needs to realize why they even have a country they can have the freedom to sell their million dollar homes in. It is because of those very U.S. military veterans ,that some people in Irvine do not welcome, spilling their life blood and placing themselves in harms way to make safe our country’s protected civilian’s freedoms including all of the U.S. citizens living in Irvine plus foreign nationals that call the City of Irvine home .
Irvine should be honored to be selected to have a military veteran cemetery located in their Great Park.When a public meeting is announced and then people are ommitted based on their not being part of a certain racial back ground ,such as being non- asian in this case, or the fact that they are military veterans is absoluting disgusting and shameful.
This meeting needs to be investigated and this Mr. Ding identified ,he supposably rented the public facilities, he needs to be possibly prosecuted if his actions are proved to be unlawful and / or illegal but at least his actions are certainly shameful . If it is determined that Five Point is behind this meeting then the top officials of Five Points including their present CEO need to be possibly charged and prosecuted.
I say to all of you citizens build this veteran cemetery in Irvine sooner than later . Our military veterans and their families deserve it plus need it now and with out any undue delay.How many more of our military veterans will die with out being buried close to their families and loved ones. Your example of Walt Ehlers who was awarded the Medal of Honor having to be buried in Riverside is a good example. How many more veterans like him will be buried out of Orange County if we let this Great Park veteran cemetery be delayed.
I believe more land should have been put aside for a veteran cemetery in the Grear Park. Maybe that can still happen later but only if it will not delay planning and getting started on building the veteran cemetery at the Great Park now.If you are a military veteran past, present or future thank you for your service to our country.I salute you all.
G.I. Joseph Combat Infantryman 1969-1970
Vietnam- Cambodia
*GI JOE himself,
Thank you Comrade in Arms. Glad you got home alright. You have some good points, but we will argue the Separation of the Services issue, not because everyone does it, but because it is the right thing to do. Your are perfectly correct that Units like the 442nd should have more than access to our Orange County Service Memorial Cemetary. We are still trying to live down how Dr. Sammy Lee was treated after he came back from the Olympics and couldn’t even buy a house in the OC! Nonsense! Anyway, how long should it take to break ground and bury our first hero? How about 180 days. We need to bring Walt Ehlers back to the OC. He should have the honor of being the first internee burial laid to rest at our new facility. Unless of course you have another Medal of Honor recipient waiting that lived in the OC for over 60 years. We have heard all the rumors about “the possibility” that the initial area could be expanded! May be a long day in the hot sun to wait for that? By putting Walt at or near the Center of the proposed facility we will have something rare and important to start with. GI JOE, you seem familiar enough with the process to understand that to expedite the process is always a toughie. The people involved either want “Last Say” or “The Last Lunch this year”. Awful process and that is why we need a strong expeditor…..and as cheap as the County is – putting a prime time expeditor on the job for six months could make things happen. As Cynthia says, the ground just needs a little scrape job of a couple of feet to pass EPA and CEQA requirements. Now, if you believe that – well, we will have to see it to believe it. Once the land has been awarded a clean bill, the detailed design map of the project will need to accepted by County Planning. Once that is done – ground breaking, hard hats, new shovels and a couple of commemorative stickers and we should be off and running to begin construction of the Admin Reception Building. Meanwhile, Walt will be keeping guard with his seven foot tall statue on top of a ten foot base emblazzoned with his history and Medal history. The lay out should be thus: Area broken into four basic directions: Army to the North, Navy to the West, Marines to the South, Air Force, Coast Guard and Merchant Marine to the East. The area should be laid out much as our National Monument structures, with wide walkways to the center with easy to find Service Designation signs and each plot or crypt labeled by a uniform Service Medallion. This did not take five years to figure out by the way. What we need is a desire to complete the work and the understanding that all that have served – are welcome, but those most decorated will find pre-eminence..
To Ron Winship and other interested veterans and civilians in favor of the military cemetery in Irvine’s Great Park. I hope that people will put aside their egos and self pride if they have them and concentrate on the mission of establishing a veteran cemetery at the Great Park ground in Irvine in as rapid a time frame as possible.
Orange County has needed this veterans cemetery for many years. Irvine’s Great Park is an excellant and perfect choice not some hidden out of the way canyon. Lets get it done rapidly and get it done right.
Most medal of honor winners are very humble individuals and do not consider themselves heroes.They almost always refer to their fellow killed in action soldiers who paid the ultimate price as the real heroes.I did not know Walt Ehlers or his family personally I read about his actions.I feel they are the ones to decide if they want Walt reburied at the Great Park veteran cemetery when it opens .
I believe that Walt Ehlers would not particularly chose to have a 7 foot statue of himself erected ].Probably something a lot simpler. That I believe is something in my opinion his loved one should decide about.They should know Walt’s wishes.Not the general public.The award of military medals for the citizen- soldiers. I served with were not of much importance to them including myself. Maybe to other people they are.
The protecting and saving the life of their fellow combat in arms brothers was the prime deed hoped to accomplish. No greater love does a soldier have than to lay down your life for your fellow soldier. There are many unknown, unnamed soldiers that were absolute heroes that shall be known only unto God and the persons they served with. That I know as a fact as I saw it up close and personal while serving as a combat infantryman 11 B MOS for a complete in the field tour of duty.
Yes, Ron I was very fortunate to have survived.Many of my friends I served with were killed in action.I shall alway remember and honor them and their families..
All military veterans need to have the opportunity to be buried with honor in the military cemetery of their own or their families and loved ones choice if space is available.It does not matter how long they lived in a certain local or how many medals were awarded. The Medal of Honor award is the exception I can agree with you about. All veterans are deserving of burial in a veteran’s cemetery hollowed ground.
Ron, you and I may differ in our opinions about certain aspects of the Great Park military veteran cemetery in Irvine. I feel we are generally on the same page about getting this veteran cemetery done right and also quickly with out shortchanging or cheaping out our military veterans or their family and loved ones in the process.Ron and all other veterans thanks for your sacrifice and service to our country.
G. I. Joseph citizen-soldier combat- Infantryman
1969-1970
Vietnam-Cambodia
*GI Joe ….himself…..knew we were kindered spirits. Also a Citizen Solider July 67-July69…..intially 11B20 – Fired Expert on three weapons systems, Rifle, Auto Rifle and Machine Gun. American Spirit Medal out of Basic, European Theatrer USEURA….Courts and Board Clerk, 72B20 Cryptographic Operator and Interim Comm Chief and finally Administrative Asst. at the Army Education Center – Nuremberg……but hey, was only in for two years ….what more could we do….to save Democracy in our time? Oh, fought the Ruskies and Eastern Block when they invaded Czechoslavkia…….across the border of course! Can’t still hear the ringing bells of my teletype machine….in HQ, HQ Trp; S-1. Meanwhile, you were putting your life on the line, every day… our dear “unsung hero”. They say our guys; 2nd Armd Cav went to Cambodia in 70-71….we were well gone by then.
[Ed. Note: this comment is being retained just to add to our collection of “post and flee” IP addresses.]
Their “BlogSpot” profile is BLANK.
I just can’t …. were Asian vets admitted but vets of other ethnicities denied admittance?
The only Asian vet who I know was there was the 89-year-old sailor, a Navy retiree after 28 years, who you see in the photos. (I don’t think that he’s Chinese.) I don’t know whether he was turned away or just refused to abandon his comrades.
Sam is from the Philippines
Anyone starting to connect the dots following Spitzer?
County Homeless Shelter – OOH. Quick! Put it in Anaheim!
Veterans Cemetery – OOH. Quick! Put it in Anaheim!
1) Didn’t such choices usually (FROMERLY) have a studied evaluation process, with criteria, and a choice for the BEST among ALTERNATIVES ? WHEN did that morph into a frantic panicked grab for the nearest FIRE EXTINGUISHER?
2) From registration stats on his website, 13% of 3rd district votes are in Anaheim. 32.3% in Irvine. http://ocgov.com/gov/bos/3/info/demographics
3) 3) I very much hope OC doesn’t face a shortage of landfill space. Any bets on what Spitzer’s NEXT reflexive “quick fix” choice would be?
And before I get any HORIZONTAL 21-gun salutes, I would welcome a Vet cemetery here IF AN OPEN PROCESS DETERMINED THAT WAS THE BEST CHOICE. My beef is not with the Cemetery, but the LACK of process.
I think your resentment on item #1 here is misplaced.
There are supposed to be homeless shelters in each of the supervisor’s districts. While it’s regrettable progress isn’t being made anywhere, don’t fall victim to the rumor that the proposed shelter in Anaheim is THE county homeless shelter or that its location hasn’t been well thought out.
Fullerton and Anaheim have been working on this for YEARS. Is the current location perfect? Of course not. It’s definitively better than putting it on a parcel that shares a fence line with a school in Fullerton. It’s value vs. the Karcher site is in question, but let’s not call this a panic grab. A grab of last resort? Maybe.
I’m sure I’ll take flack for this, but we need this shelter. We need it yesterday. Get it built.
Again, it’s NOT the project, it’s the LACK of (open) process. I would think MULTIPLE alternatives for BOTH have been LONG obvious to our “leaders” proabably from a $tudy group or con$ultant report, yet that A-B-C decision is made before a choice is presented to the public as a YES-NO decision, without context or alternatives. Only an uproar produces “Plan B”. That is NOT “Democracy in Action” or anything close.
Also, I doubt the Kraemer site has been “in work” for a SINGLE year. Where was ANY mention of it in the fracas over the Fullerton site? (OR the Karcher site for that matter?) What would happen, (hypothetically) if some unknown problem, let’s imagine hazmat, surfaces with the Kraemer site? Is there yet a “Plan C” ? My bet would be a long silence as pith helmeted Bwana Todd hops back into the Explorer jeep and zooms off.
Without initial alternatives, it’s NOT a next “resort”, it’s a grab. Sorry.
Well, I dunno about you, but typically when I’ve bought property . . . inspections only occur after an agreement to purchase. Not sure why we’d insist on knowing the results of an inspection before we can realistically get an inspection.
Anyway, I still think you’re over simplifying the issue. Yes, the action is desperate. It’s desperate because the situation is desperate. I really don’t have an appetite to talk about process while we’re handing out citations to the homeless for simply being homeless while we twiddle our thumbs for the better part of a decade NOT building a homeless shelter.
I don’t see any link between this important issue and the Veteran’s cemetery (also important.)