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Michael Moore’s documentaries have poignantly and hilariously explored many of our most explosive political issues. After a six-year hiatus, his latest is being released this Friday, and since pneumonia prevents him from doing the usual publicity, he sent out this letter instead:
“I realize you haven’t seen “Where To Invade Next”, so I’m asking you to do this based upon my past work and your hope that I’ve made a compelling film that might affect change in this country, that will inspire people to think about things in a different way.
“I believe that’s exactly what I’ve done, and many who’ve seen it agree (LINK). I also believe this movie can have a huge impact on the elections this year. It’s won a bunch of film festival prizes, it’s made the Oscars shortlist, and some have called it my best film ever. Possibly, just possibly.
“Last week, laying in the hospital, I watched one Presidential candidate attack the candidate from Vermont for his ideas being “unrealistic,” “pie in the sky,” and “ideas that sound good on paper, but aren’t going to happen.” The truth is, all these great “ideas” – free universal health care, free university, free day care, taxing and policing hedge fund millionaires – have already happened in nearly every other industrialized country in the world!
“And I have the evidence – and the film — to prove it! Throughout “Where To Invade Next”, I invade a whole bunch of nefarious countries, from Slovenia to Germany to France to Norway, and pry loose from them the tools they’ve been using to make their countries happy, shiny places.
“My goal: to show millions of Americans what these countries have been hiding from us so we can catch up and be #1 again! Remember “WE’RE #1!!”? Don’t you miss being #1 and waving those big foam #1 fingers at patriotic rallies?
“In my invasions, I don’t use any weapons, and no one gets droned. I show how to actually make all universities free (and great); how to give all workers five to eight weeks PAID vacation (which increases productivity and betters the economy); how simple and easy it is to give mothers (or fathers) up to a year of PAID maternity leave (which in turn benefits the company overall); how in the societies where woman have achieved true equality and power, everything just seems to get better for everyone; how to reduce the crime rate by ending the war on drugs and having a humane prison system (our recidivism rate is as high as 80%; theirs is 20%); how the economy bounces back faster and is safer when bankers are put in prison; how students in countries without standardized tests and needless homework perform better than our students (and that countries which have more arts and music in their schools do better in math and science)… and on and on and on.
“By the end of the movie, you’ll want to go live in one of those countries. But instead, I’ll show you how we can make all of that happen right here in the USA, right now.”
This is your Weekend Open Thread. Feel free to invade it with your speech and patriotic ideas!
Related ?
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/11/30/Why-Can-t-Pentagon-Audit-Its-Books-Excuses-Pile
I appreciate the work that Moore does. He gives a different perspective to the problems we face in America. And there’s some truth to his messages. However, to imply that the solution to our problems is to follow the economic model of Europe is crazy. Has Moore seen what socialism has done to Greece? It’s turned them into a nation of beggars. Does Moore have any idea why Europe is floundering economically. Has he investigated the PIIGS?
I do agree that the European model of healthcare is better than the one we have today in America. Our healthcare system is still broken and will continue to be broken as long as the government allows the insurance companies, the pharma companies and the healthcare organization to have a virtual monopoly over the system. I could fly to India and get a quadruple bypass at a 5 star hospital performed by highly qualified US-trained cardio-thoracic surgeons at about 10% of the cash cost I would pay in the USA. I could fly to Japan and get an MRI and take a 10 day vacation there at a lesser cost than I would pay to purchase the same MRI in the USA. American made pharmaceuticals are available at about a third to half the cost in Europe than I would pay at the local drugstore. Why? Because the government (the lawmakers) have given the healthcare system monopolistic powers over the management of your health. I am forbidden by law to purchase my drugs from Canada. If I do, I am a criminal. The same is true for medical devices and equipment. Reimportation is illegal. But this is not true for most other industries in our global economy. But the ‘free trade’ global paradigm has been made illegal for healthcare. In effect, the USA subsidizes healthcare costs for the rest of the industrialized (and impoverished) world.
Don’t be too quick the blame the corporations for this. Without their ability to bribe and buy votes from your lawmakers to give them the power necessary to monopolize your healthcare system – they could never get away with it.
The education system is a whole other matter. The Europeans are able to give free tuition to their students because many fewer (per capita) young people attend University over there. They are tested in secondary school. Unless they meet strict academic requirements they do not proceed to University. They enter the trade industries. In America everybody believes they have a right to a college education. Only about half the kids in my college had any business being there. It was a joke. They were there for all the wrong reasons. A huge waste of money. But when Mr. Banker gives a 19 year old $50,000 in form a student loan when Mr. Banker is at no risk to eat the loss if the kid defaults on his loan – Mr. Banker becomes a risk-free salesman. The Mr. University President takes no risk either. Mr. Univeristy President gets his classroom seat filled and once the tuition is paid with the loan money it goes right into the Univerity’s account and is risk-free. If the kid cannot pay back the loan or cannot find a job with his degree – that’s his problem and the taxpayer’s problem since student loans are generally federally guaranteed. No wonder tuition is so high.
Oh, and it really didn’t matter whether we had a dem or pub POTUS or whether we had a majority dem or pub CONgress. The status-quo remained. So this is not about individual political parties. It’s about a crooked political system that’s gaming the system for personal gain and pulling the nation underwater economically.
Oh, btw, you know why Germany is the strongest nation economically in Europe? Because it employs very conservative policies. The retirement age there is about 10 years later than in Greece and the other PIIGS. You must be a German citizen or in the country legally to attend a German public school. Same with non-emergency healthcare privileges. These are the things that Michael Moore probably wouldn’t tell you.
But thinking that Europe is Nirvana and paradise for the working class is a deceptive notion. I do prefer the European lifestyle over the American lifestyle in many ways. It’s a much more civilized and sophisticated culture. But they have their own set fo problems.
According to economist Paul Krugman, “ At the end of 2009 Greece faced a crisis driven by two factors: High debt, and inflated costs and prices that left the country uncompetitive.” He doesn’t mention socialism, so it’d be helpful if you explain what you mean.
What’s the economic model in Europe, and by that do you mean the austerity policies in some European countries? Sure , It’d be crazy for Moore to propose that model. Now if he is proposing the worker’s participation in the board of directors in some industries like in Germany, or worker’s ownership of some companies, like in Spain, then it doesn’t sound crazy.
On our crooked political system pulling the nation underwater economically, could it be because of the top one-tenth of one percent owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent, as Bernie has been saying?
That was actually a pretty darn good rant there by Z. Credit where credit is due.
I don’t even read Krugman’s stuff anymore he’s been wrong so many times. Do you know that Krugman was the driving force behind Abenomics in Japan? How’s that worked out? So I couldn’t care less what Krugman thinks.
If you don’t believe that Greece is a socialist nation – I can be of no further assistance. Some things are just not debatable.
Germany is a strong nation economically but is being dragged down by the PIIGS. Germany is much less socialist than most of the others – as I noted in my previous comment. Germany made a big mistake by joining the EU.
I like Bernie. But he’s really out in left field on some of his proposals. Someone has to pay for all the free stuff. We’re having a hard enough time the way it is now. America did not prosper by providing free services to all. I do like Bernie’s opinion on Wall Street. He’s one of the few who speaks the truth on that particular subject matter.
Did you see that the DNC has rolled back restrictions introduced by presidential candidate Barack Obama in 2008 that banned donations from federal lobbyists and political action committees?
I wonder if Moore will do a movie on that? 🙂
Wasn’t it Obama who took a donation of over $1,000,000 from Goldman Sachs in 2008? Oh yes it was!
No wonder nothing’s changed!
These won’t sell as much popcorn as Mr. Moore’s epic, but I believe they capsulize the causes more than bemoan the symptoms.
http://dailyreckoning.com/anatomy-of-the-deep-state-an-open-conspiracy/?
http://www.zerohedge.com/print/518633
FWIW-
On video #1 with PC Roberts, you can skip a bunch of commercial pitches and chatter to past 9:00, parts 2 &3 have more content.
“The truth is, all these great ‘ideas’ – free universal health care, free university, free day care, taxing and policing hedge fund millionaires – have already happened in nearly every other industrialized country in the world!”
It’s a miracle the man can’t find a free salad.
Worst things have been said, like this one in another publication : ” I also used to like his message and movies until he paraded with OWS and then said nothing, zero when the Obama Administration got rid of them via the cops, via the FBI and via Bloomberg…”
Being overweight is not something to be disqualified from anything, except from Wellness incentives awards. He has already won a few awards though for this movie.
Michael Moore should concentrate all his efforts in reducing his weight. He complains about the medical system. But no matter how good a medical system could be – it can’t save man from himself. I understood that he’s battling pneumonia in the hospital. No surprise. I like his movies. But he’s way too partisan. Like you said, he’s given Obama a huge pass. Obama is one of Wall Street’s best friends.
It will disqualify him from life.
That’s pretty damn serious.
Yes, no eating salads is indeed damn serious.
“given Obama a huge pass”. until recently –
But his ephiphany is too little, too late and is certainly of no concern (like much else) to Obama.
Yeah, that’s sort of like endorsing Dracula for the Translyvania City Council and supporting him for years until the final few months of his last term in office -then suddenly complaining after he cleaned out the very last blood bank in town.
Oh, btw, it appears that Moore’s health has deteriorated under ObamaCare. We humans aren’t very good at introspection. Someone should point that out to him.
I do like his movies. Much is propoganda coming from one side. I take that into consideration when viewing. But I do learn from them. I just wish he wasn’t so biased and intolerant in his own way.
And you’re quite correct: “Too little Too late”.
Where to invade next? ……. Mexico! It HAS to be Mexico!!! And do it when the Pope is there & take that papal fraud communist into custody.
I think you have the mexican invasion backwards.
Being raised a Catholic I know and understand Catholic doctrine like the back of my hand. Based on public comments made by Pope Francis the Catholics should take him into custody on heresy charges and strip him of his infallibility. In his short tenure Francis may cause more damage to Catholicism than did the English Reformation.
Was it Mark Twain who said, “History does not repeat itself, but it rhymes” ?
Francis is Catholicism’s Obama.
It amazes me how many Catholics still fall for the “infallibility” line.
During the Prayer of the Faithful following the Homily the congregation is asked to pray for various ills throughout the world – to include for those who are subject to religious persecution and those who are forced to believe in a certain way.
And during times of war the congregations are asked to pray for our soldiers in harm’s way (which is very understandable) but it’s a rare occasion to be asked to pray for the innocent civilians being slaughtered or driven from their homes in foreign lands caught between 2 feuding powers.
I only wish human institutions and people in general could be a little more objective.
No, he’s not.
He’s significantly more biased to leading through action than Obama. Obama makes a lot of speeches, complains, but ultimately behaves like any other politician.
pFran is different.
Pope Francis is driving away traditional Catholics of means who have been the backbone of his church. Instead, he’s inviting in more of those found in the ‘needy’ category. That’s not a smart way to run a business.
But I have to admit that he has some business brains with his strategy on illegal immigration. Naturally he was a huge proponent of America giving refuge to the huge flood of immigrants from Central America. What many people don’t know is that his organizations Catholic Charities and Catholic Relief Services landed huge long-termed contracts with the Federal government to house, feed, clothe, educate and provide medical care to those migrants. Have any of you ever wondered how many impoverished migrants illegally entered Vatican City and were sustained on the Pope’s dime? Have any of you ever visited the Vatican and witnessed the amount of gold and precious art in the public view? Keep in mind that’s only a drop in the bucket when it comes to the net worth of the Catholic Church. You’d probably be shocked to see what they have inside the vaults in the Vatican’s basement. 🙂
All this wealth and the Catholic leaders can’t even afford to install a drinking fountain in the Catholic Church that I used to attend. Old people who generously gave to the Catholic causes went dehydrated.
But I see that Pope Francis recently met with the Russian Orthodox leader in Cuba and kissed and made up after a 1000 year schism.
The New World Order is moving along on schedule.
^^^^ um, no.
Um, yes.
The pedophile scandal drove millions of Catholics away. Saddleback Church is full of reformed Catholics. But don’t assume that’s a good thing.
And millions of other Catholics are very disturbed with the reforms that Pope Francis is attempting to impose on their church.
Maybe you aren’t paying attention – but there is strong dissent both at the Vatican and within the US Conference of Catholic Bishops over Pope Francis’ public comments and his predilection to reengineer basic Catholic traditions.
If a large group of Catholic Bishops have indicated grave concern over Francis’ leadership – what do you think the average congregant is thinking?
Again, no.
I’m sure that’s a compelling retort, but that’s all you get!
“No” by itself is a meaningless answer.
You flunk.
You need to go back to catechism. You missed a few important bits.
Unless you explain yourself I give your comment zero validity.
OMG..!.no worries, the free market is sacrosanct anyway.
Just in case, we are stockpiling chisels and hammers if the wall maker gets through.
Free market?
We haven’t had one of those since we traded in our rotary for the digital push button phone. Anyone under the age of 40 wouldn’t even know what constitutes a free market unless he happened to get ahold of an old unrevised history or economics textbook. In the last 25 years the slippery slope has become slipperier and the downgrade has steepened by about a 30 degree angle.
But Krugman would tell you that it’s all good. 🙂
We have been invaded by some things that are just not debatable.
Those who do not more fully explain their vague comments usually have something to hide.
It probably means folks recognize you’re intractable.
That’s fine, but it doesn’t exactly provide a heathy environment for discussion.
Yeah, it’s probably not a healthy environment for discussion when some resort to personalizing comments in a negative light as opposed to simply responding to the comment and offering a response / opinion in an unambigous way. I understand what you mean.
Ryan, you brought back a past memory !
In Catholic school, as vicious as Roman rule, I got my knuckles bruised by a lady in black. I held my tongue as she told me “Son, fear is the heart of love.” So I never went back.
Death Cab for Cutie –
Nuclear war is different than strawberry ice cream, but without context, that also says nothing. Unlike “any other politician”, I believe Obama can, and is extremely fond of, ‘acting’ to issue Executive orders (and the lesser known and MORE secretive Presidential Memorandums) in between speeches. The mechanisms and limits of the power they can exercise ARE different in their respective organizations.
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2013/03/10/What-a-pope-can-and-cannot-do-Doctrine-limits-new-pope-on-changes/stories/201303100177
Of all the topics whirling through discussion and the press, how many have made it from “hoped for”, and “in process” to “achieved” ? Aren’t “actions” usually defined by “results” ? My allusion was to their similarity in unilaterally bringing “disruptive force” to their respective organizations, and the jury being out on both cases on the expected productive results.
The difference being the Pope is a King.
Obama is not.
The Pope acts like the antithesis of a King.
Obama does not.
Well, let’s see…
The Pope is a king… who acts like its antithesis
Obama is not a king … who acts unlike its antithesis
That seems to reduce to a similar conflict with expectations, not a difference.
Potato, potahto. Meh.
Alright, well played.
Forcing beliefs and actions on those you govern, while maintaining ‘infallibility’, is a dictatorship. Some would call a “king” a dictator.
Turning 5,000 years of traditional doctrine upside down over the course of 2 year period is the act of a “king”.
The only difference between Obama and Francis is that one uses missiles and hi-tech military prowess to maintain his power and the other uses Jesus.
Oh man, again (again?), that’s not what he’s done.
You’re not only grossly misstating how infallibility works, you’ve also grossly overstated how the age of the church, including its doctrine, which much to your apparent frustration, remains wholly intact.
There you go again. Claiming my statement is wrong without an explanation or a correct answer. Why do you do that? Is that your modus operandi during on-line debates?
Most good Christians who adhere to the teachings of the Bible say the earth was created about 5,000 to 6,000 years ago. (Yes, I know what science says. But we’re talking Christians here.) Catholic doctrine taught in their parochial schools begins at about that point in time.
OK. Your turn. Tell me I’m wrong. In fact, just say “no”. That should suffice. 🙂
No, it doesn’t. Catholics don’t believe the earth is 5000 years old. Most good Christians don’t either. That’s ridiculous.
And their “doctrine” doesn’t even start getting defined until 40 AD. Most of what your calling doctrine isn’t actually doctrine, and it has only been a part of the Church’s past practice for a few hundred years.
Please stop informing everyone they’re uniformed. You’re welcome to comment, but your casualty around what’s a fact and what isn’t is disturbing.
If Catholics and Good Christians follow the word of the Bible they do. You’re off the mark again.
Whatever is contained in their doctrine constitutes their doctrine. The origins of the earth is addressed in the Bible, which is part of their doctrine.
Why do you get so mad? Calm down.
Look, I don’t like tossing this around, but you’re ignorant. What’s worse, you seem to take delight in it.
You’re flat out wrong. Catholics and most Christians do not believe in either a 5000 year old earth or a flat earth. They also believe in science.
End of discussion.
Move into the next thread. Please. We’re done here.
Jeez…. I’ll make a note to avoid on-line debate interaction with you in the future.
You appear to have a low tolerance for diversity of opinion illustrated by your personalized remarks.
Cheerio….
Look what Obama’s intervention policy has done in Syria. Only fueled the fire – which has made us appear weak and embarrassed us (again) in the eyes of the world. How much more humiliation can America take? Everywhere Obama goes he leaves a vacuum of power and the terrorists end up becoming the occupiers where there were no terrorists at the start.
Bush did the same thing. But Obama was supposed to know better and not repeat previous blunders. Besides, he was the Nobel Peace Prize winner. 🙂
And to think of all the naive Americans who bought into the “hope and change” lie.
I would say “Don’t be fooled again” but it’s getting old. I think the average American is just too stupid not to be fooled again.
Wow, Scalia died.
Wow.
Do we start the pool now on how long confirmation (or not) of a replacement will take ?
Gotta be after the election.
That would be fun if the question was in doubt. The GOP will, of course, overplay their obstructionist hand.
Bad election-year politics. But they just can’t help themselves.
I dunno, maybe Dr D has a count, but the number of SCOTUS appointments made by a lame duck Presidents can’t be too many.
I think tradition, rather than obstruction, pushes the appointment to 2017.
Obama will likely exercise some 200 year old buried executive order that would give a lame-duck POTUS the power to appoint a new SCOTUS Justice in his remaining 11 months in office. He probably cancelled today’s golf tournament to meet with George Soros to work out the details.
Ahhh, the Thurmond Rule. It’s so undefined that it shouldn’t be taken seriously.
If one takes it to be the last six months of a lame-duck term, then we’re well outside that six months.
And if conservatives defenders of the “written Constitution” truly believe in that, then taking up an Obama nominee should be no problem, right?
“Obama will likely exercise some 200 year old buried executive order that would give a lame-duck POTUS the power to appoint a new SCOTUS Justice in his remaining 11 months in office.”
Good grief. He doesn’t need that… the Constitution gives him the power to put forward a nominee.
Get a grip…and some objectivity!
Here-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appointment_and_confirmation_to_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States
it mentions about Presidential ability for recess appointments, when the Senate is out of session, though those are only for 2 years max and may be blocked.
Temporary and “may be blocked”. Those are the take-aways from your link.
The senate has much influence over the selection of a new SCOTUS.
The last I looked the Senate is composed of 54 pubs, 44 dems and 2 independents.
But this is Year 2016 when Republicans sell out their own at the drop of a hat. So it’s only your guess how this plays out.
Well, I haven’t read the news on Scalia today. But if it’s true that Scalia has passed it will really upset the balance of power in this country and increase the angle of the slippery slope to the detriment of the Nation.
Well, it’s probably best that we hasten the process so it’ll force the baby boomers to eat some of our own cooking. I really despise the unfair notion that all the problems get passed down to the kids who had very little to do with the myriad of predicaments we find outselves in today.
The baby boomers should share in the suffering. I am fair to the point of my own demise.
Justice Scalia dead at 79.
It wasn’t a hot tub accident, was it?
*Let’s all watch “Roger and Me” again. Maybe Scalia was in that movie too!
” Those who do not more fully explain their vague comments usually have something to hide…”
Wow, I took a time out to watch the movie (people were clapping at the end) and Ziggy threw a low blow at me. Thanks Ryan for damage control. I though that Z was a good sport. Anytime he feels that a conversation has reached a non-datable point, he says so and we move on, we respect his decision.
Oh well. Let’s assume that the free market is dead, and let’s leave Krugman alone. Perhaps Piketty may help explain the economics behind Z’s assessment of our political and economic system as crooked:
http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2014/06/a-peek-at-piketty/
Apparently some do not understand the check and balance system that our Founding Fathers designed.
If the zookeeper left the gates of the tiger and lion cages wide open it would be no surprise that they would escape their boundaries and cause panic in the human community.
Well, when government designed the rules that gave the capitalists an unfair advantage in our economy and then looked the other way while the Capitalists committed financial fraud and much more…then what would you expect the outcome to be?
Do you expect wild animals to act civilized?
Do you expect a profit-seeking capitalist to act responsibly while the government entices him to do otherwise?
Please….examine cause and effect.
And if you care to continue the debate a full response would be appreciated from your blog audience. Thanks in advance.
This weekend’s activity here uncovered this pearl from our hopelessly clueless yet dangerously empowered “favorite” Federal Agency- (page 97 of IRS Publication 17-)
“Stolen property. If you steal property, you must report its fair market value in your income in the year you steal it unless in the same year, you return it to its rightful owner.”… any stats on how often THAT happens ? lol. Well, here’s a stat they DO have-
“… last week, hackers successfully generated 101,000 E-file PINs from 464,000 stolen Social Security numbers.” (Fortune via Yahoo.) File early ! (and often !)
Nature comes full circle-
http://gizmodo.com/dutch-police-are-training-eagles-to-capture-drones-1756339714
Hillary has something to say – “Who let the dogs out?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgCP9vOUd1o
Matt Coker has topped himself with this ill informed, bigoted, racist and anti-immigrant piece of trash –
PROBE SOUGHT OF OC-BASED CHARTER SCHOOL SYSTEM’S TIES TO IMAM LABELED “TERRORIST” BY TURKISH GOVERNMENT
http://www.ocweekly.com/news/probe-sought-of-oc-based-charter-school-systems-ties-to-imam-labeled-terrorist-by-turkish-government-6977407
That is a notably stupid comment, Goat Boy.
What factual assertion there do you think is false? What characterization or opinion do you think is racist?
You like charter schools — we get it. You think that accusations of racism are bogus so you’ll try to prove it by throwing them around with abandon. We get it.
You are boring and feeble. We get it.
Well, Pope Francis is shooting off his mouth again and stinking his nose into where it doesn’t belong – in American politics.
His latest blurb is that Donald Trump is not a Christian since he wants to build a wall along our southern border to protect Americans from a foreign invasion.
Do any of you realize that the Catholic social service agencies have contracts with the Federal government to house, educate, feed, clothe and provide medical care to the illegal migrants who enter our nation? It’s become a multi-million dollar business for the Catholic Church. So the more illegal migrants who enter the nation – the more revenue for the Catholic Chuch.
No wonder the Pope is now officially taking sides in the US Presidential elections – even though his Church doesn’t pay a dime in taxes to support the nation’s welfare programs. The Pope is protecting his business interests. What ever happened to the separation of church and state? I wouldn’t mind if the Pope entered the political fray – as long as the his Church pays its fair share of taxes. But the fact that his Church is exempt from US taxes while he continues to speak out on political issues really irks my backside. It needs to stop. The US government needs to fire a shot over the bow. Either pay up or shut up!!!
Z, wasn’t the Pope addressing a comment made by Trump earlier about the Pope not understanding border issues?
http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2016/02/11/trump-pope-francis-doesnt-understand-border-issues/
As a religious leader, he can define what a Christian is, and his message may or may not influence some of his followers.
You’re a well versed fellow, and you know that leaders, including the religious ones, are political. Even when they are silent. Can you imagine if the Pope had spoken out when your admired Nazi army was committing genocide?
The major media companies reported that on his return trip to Rome from his visit to Mexico the Pope was asked for his opinion on Donald Trump’s intention to build a wall along the southern border between the US and Mexico. There was no indication that the Pope was responding to some former alleged Trump comment that the Pope didn’t understand the border issues. So it smells like a diversionary tactic. Anyway, in response, the Pope alluded that Trump is “not Christian” for wanting to build a between the US and Mexico.
I would be offended if a US politician or a candidate for a high US political office accused the Pope of heresy or blasphemy for supporting gay relations, the use of artificial contraceptives, forgiving abortion, etc… even though traditional Catholics would argue that it violates Catholic doctrine.
By the same token, I take offense when the Pope targets one particular POTUS candidate and degrades him by questioning his Christian leanings because he wants to build a wall on the southern border.
Did the Pope question whether Obama is a “Christian” for invading Libya or Syria without legal authority or international UN approval, respectively – and taking thousands of human lives in the process?
Religious leaders are obligated to save souls, not to take sides in US political matters, particularly when the churches that they represent are exempt from paying taxes. If the Pope agrees to pay taxes on his Church property in the US I would likely reevaluate my position. Pope Francis needs to pay up or shut up. It’s not his place to meddle in US political races.
I have had long conversations with German-Americans who lived in Germany during the Holocaust. None were surprised that the Catholic Church failed to protest or intervene.
“your admired Nazi army” is taken with offense. I believe an apology is in order if you believe in civilized behavior.
The Pope shouldn’t throw stones when he lives behind a big wall.
When he starts paying his US taxes and tears down his own wall – then he can talk about Donald Trump with a straight face.
“Pope Francis made an indirect but biting criticism at Donald Trump Thursday, suggesting those who build walls “aren’t Christian.” Ironically, the pope’s home of Vatican City is surrounded by enormous medieval walls.”
http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/18/pope-says-those-who-build-walls-arent-christian-lives-behind-massive-wall/
Generally, you are correct about the non-action of the Church during WWII – however ….
The Lübeck Martyrs were three Roman Catholic priests – Johannes Prassek, Eduard Müller and Hermann Lange – and the Evangelical-Lutheran pastor Karl Friedrich Stellbrink. All four were executed by beheading on 10 November 1943 less than 3 minutes apart from each other at Hamburg’s Holstenglacis Prison (then called Untersuchungshaftanstalt Hamburg-Stadt, in English: Investigative Custody Centre of the City of Hamburg). Eyewitnesses reported that the blood of the four clergymen literally ran together on the guillotine and on the floor. This impressed contemporaries as a symbol of the ecumenical character of the men’s work and witness. That interpretation is supported by their last letters from prison, and statements they themselves made during their time of suffering, torture and imprisonment. “We are like brothers,” Hermann Lange said
The Catholic priests worked at the Herz-Jesu Kirche (Sacred Heart Church) in the centre of Lübeck, Prassek as a chaplain, Müller as assistant minister and Lange as vicar. Stellbrink was pastor of the city’s Lutherkirche (Luther Church). The four had been close friends since 1941, exchanging information and ideas, and sharing sermons, including those of Clemens August Graf von Galen, Catholic bishop of Münster.
In his Palm Sunday 1942 sermon, Stellbrink had interpreted a British air raid on Lübeck the previous night as God’s judgment. He was arrested on 7 April 1942, followed by Prassek on 18 May, Lange on 15 June, and Müller on 22 June. In addition to the clerics, a further 18 Catholic lay people were arrested, including Stephan Pfürtner, who would later become a moral theologian.
A year later, between 22 and 23 June 1943, the trial of the four men took place before the second chamber of the People’s Court, with Wilhelm Crohne presiding. He had journeyed to Lübeck specifically for the hearing. The clerics were sentenced to death for ‘broadcasting crime [specifically, listening to enemy broadcasts [1]], treasonable support for the enemy and demoralisation of the Armed Forces’. Some of their co-accused lay brethren received long prison sentences. The trial became known as the “Lübeck Christians’ Trial”, an indication of the anti-Christian bias of proceedings.
The clerics were immediately transferred to Hamburg’s Holstenglacis Prison, which had become the regional centre for executions in 1936 and had added an execution building with permanently mounted guillotine in 1938.[2] The Catholic bishop under whose care the Catholic priests fell, Wilhelm Berning (Diocese of Osnabrück) visited the priests in prison and wrote a plea for clemency, which was rejected. Pastor Stellbrink received no support from his Province’s church authorities, and prior to his execution was ejected from Holy Orders because of his conviction.
– Wikipedia.
BTW, I agree 100% on your comments concerning the Pope.
Thanks for your analysis, Shivas.
It was laudable that there was isolated resistance against the Nazi regime by 3 courageous Roman Catholic parish priests living in Germany during WW2. I guess if we looked hard enough we could always find people in precarious situations with exceptional courage. I suppose there were some Catholic priests who publicly spoke out against the Catholic hierarchy for protecting the pedophile priests in more recent years. I am not familiar with any. But I’m sure if I looked hard enough I could find a few.
Of course, we look for action from the leaders of organizations that are in the business of religion and morals and humanitarian service to condemn atrocious acts against humanity committed by rogue nations. The Pope and the Cardinals are the leaders of the Catholic Church. Can you provide any examples of those leaders specifically speaking out against or condemning the holocaust? I appreciate in advance any examples you can furnish.
There are lots.
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/about/events/pope/john_paul/speech.asp
It was very convenient and popular for Pope John XXIII to criticize holocaust 2 decades after the fact after Germany lost the war.
Maybe you could find some quotes from Pope Pius XII (who reigned during WW2) that condemned the holocaust.
Good luck. 🙂
Keep shifting those goalposts, Z. Eventually, you’ll land on something defensible.
Dodge. BIG dodge. Typical.
Hmmmm … you may have Ziggy mixed up with a prior commenter of ours.
OK, extend your analysis to Protestants, now, or this won’t be a big enough kerfuffle.
Usually, “shooting off his mouth again and stinking his nose into where it doesn’t belong” is a charge reserved for more important things, such as “it’s not your business how I discipline my wife” and “I’ll pay my workers whatever I want to and no more.” I don’t usually think of “American politics” as being as insulated as those.
It’s the Pope who encourages unlawful activity by wanting to make it easier for illegal foreigners to enter America.
It’s Donald Trump who wants to mitigate that illegal activity by building a wall.
So I don’t understand the intent of your analogies which appear to be regulated to one extent or the other under rule of law.
You seem to have the Pope’s and Trump’s intentions backwards.
Btw, how many undocumented foreigners who need soup to nuts social and financial assistance does Pope Francis sustain in Vatican City? I don’t hear him talk much about that. Does anyone happen to know?
*”They bring in their rapists…..their criminals…..their drug cartel members….their killers…… and that is just to the Trump Plaza and the Trump Tower!” says Trump.
“Oy vey!”….says the Pope! and “Hello Walls…..because…The Wailing Wall…. is certainly non Christian!”
I’ve seen stats that say 25% of the California prison beds are occupied by those in the Country illegally (or without authorization…if you prefer).
That’s alot of inmates. I understand the prison population in California is about 113,000. If my math is correct, 25% of that is about 28,000.
So maybe if we analyze his comment before we go on the attack we might draw a different conclusion.
If a man wants to protect his own nation from a foreign invasion that has tremendous social and financial costs – does that make him anti-Christian?
Let’s start there.
You’re completely bastardizing his point.
A Christian builds bridges before he builds walls.
Hyperbolizing that statement into encouraging foreign invasion is ludicrous.
If you really want to debate the man’s point, let’s hear why Donald Trump, the billionaire, has the moral authority to advertise his Christian credentials in South Carolina.
Seems a bit more relevant than demanding the Pope keep his opinions to himself.
“A Christian builds bridges before he builds walls”
Then why doesn’t the Pope tear down the wall around his home and build a bridge there?
It’s my understanding that Trump is a Protestant. I was taught that Protestantism belongs to the Christian faith.
The Pope has no business to throw stones when he lives behind a wall and meddle in our POTUS elections when is exempt from US taxes.
Actually, as you’ve noted, condemning what he perceived as wrongdoing IS part of his business.
You’re kidding me, right?
That’s it? His self identification grants him moral authority.
WEAK.
And, again, you’re still missing the boat on the Pope’s statement . . . unless you’re actually going to argue the guy isn’t building bridges, which would patently be false.
“Actually, as you’ve noted, condemning what he perceived as wrongdoing IS part of his business”
Is being a hypocrite part of his business?
Wrong reply?
“That’s it? His self identification grants him moral authority”
How could Francis have “moral authority” when, as the leader of the Catholic Church, he made a decision to live behind a HUGE stone wall while he impugns Donald Trump by questioning his ‘Christian’ values for wanting to build a wall on the southern border to protect his country from a foreign invasion?
Those who are moral hypocrites should be stripped of their ‘moral authority’.
Why does the Pope have Swiss Guards protecting against uninvited guests entering Vatican City? He should order his guards to build a bridge.
Tell the Pope to tear down his wall and get rid of his Swiss Guards and build a big bridge.
Otherwise, the Pope can’t be taken seriously.
Another wide miss, but OK.
The man’s a hypocrite because he lives behind a thousand year old wall.
Gotcha.
Anyone else?
So I always miss and you’re always in the bulls eye range, even though you evade many of my points. 🙂
Whatever you say.
For the moment, yup. Glad we’ve cleared that up.
You don’t have points.
Tangents?
Yes. You have a great abundance of tangents.
Anyway, if you WOULD care to defend Donald’s Christianity rather than mocking the Pope (we’re enjoying that, too), I’m sure we’d all love to read what you have to say.
IMO you’re the King of Tangents.
Trump is certainly a Christian. He’s declared himself to be a Protestant. Last time I checked that denomination qualifies to be part of the Christian community.
If you have updated information that conflicts with that – please advise.
Wahoo! King!
Per many worthless replies above this, his self identification is adequate?
Other things Trump self identifies as:
1) Conservative
2) Pro-Life
3) Pro-Property Rights
4) Pro-Second Ammendment
Etc. Etc.
Me thinks that what The Donald says may not reflect what reality has to over. I think you might want to think a bit more critically than “because he said so” before you vote.
Thus proclaimith the #KingofTangents
*offer.
Told you it wouldn’t be the last time.
The Catholic Church has supported some of the bloodiest and most atrocious wars on Planet Earth.
And you question Donald Trump’s Christian values? 🙂
If you want to meet a sinner research Hillary Clinton.
Nearly all the GOP candidates favor shutting down the border in one way or another.
Should all be stripped of their “Christian” status? 🙂
The longer this conversation goes the sillier it gets.
But continue….please. It’s very revealing.
Last I checked, the Catholic Church isn’t running for President. Same goes for the Pope.
So, yes, I want to challenge anything The Donald has to say.
Ditto for Hillary.
Or Bernie.
Or anyone else actually running for President– particularly if they’re running around pandering to the Evangelical vote.
I’m not for one to take politicians on their word, for anything really.
Thus sayith the #KingofTangents
As soon as the Pope (the influential leader of one of the largest religious denominations on the planet) enters the political fray and takes verbal shots at ONE select POTUS candidate he opens himself up to ridicule – especially when he’s a bigger violatior of his own accusations against others! The Bible told us not to “cast the first stone”. Someone should inform the Pope!
Some people just love to hate Trump. He’s condemned for which side of his head he parts his hair. Regardless of what you say about the man he remains on top of the polls. It appears that he’s on the way to to the GOP nomination unless the RNC steals it from him. At which time he’ll go Independent and likely move into the White House anyway. Which just infuriates his naysayers.
Good for Francis. I hope he does more of it.
Which, again, points to your lack of objectivity.
Wash…rinse….repeat.
What does? My fabulous mane?
There are a lot of poor there, whom he visits and offers necessities. It’s a lot smaller than the U.S., you know. (Hell, if I recall correctly, it’s a smaller than Villa Park.)
But it has a 1000 year old wall! Hypocrite!
Tear it down!
And after the Pope tears it down he can criticize Trump!
Very fair proposal.
It’s actually not fair at all.
Ridiculous? Sure.
It’s not fair to everyone.
Only to those who think objectively. 🙂
You’re playing fast and loose with the word “think”.
Sorry if I offended you.
My question was how many undocumented indigent foreigners live within the walls of the Vatican who are housed, fed, clothed, educated and given medical care on the Pope’s dime?
And are undocumented indigent foreigners allowed to freely enter Vatican City and remain there on the Vatican streets without being expelled (deported) by the Pope’s guards?
The Pope can’t be that smart. He opens himself to ridicule.
Well, he’s a foreigner. He counts, right?
Actually, 100% of residents in Vatican City are foreigners living on the Pope’s dime now that I think about it.
100%.
You’re answers are evasive and diversionary.
Intelligent readers can figure that out on their own. I just want to point out the obvious to all the others.
“I just want to point out the obvious to all the others.”
I think that sums out your presence here quite nicely.
Well done.
Another reply that makes no sense, logically.
But keep digging! 🙂
Don’t worry, the objective thinkers get it.
Smaller than Villa Park … but does it have a Deb Pauly?
Maybe Trump should declare that the Pope is not a “Christian” for practicing sexism. The Pope just recently reinforced the belief that women should not be allowed to join the priesthood.
It’s not very “Christian”-like to discriminate by gender. Is it now? 🙂
Okay, head to your keyboards…on your mark…. get ready…..
#kingoftangets says . . .
Maybe Trump should claim the Pope isn’t Christian because he doesn’t believe the earth is 5000 years old?
If the Pope takes the Bible at it’s word he would believe the earth is 5,000-6,000 years old.
But real Christians don’t cast the first stone.
So the age of the earth is irrelevant.
The Pope has already revealed his true colors.
The Pope doesn’t take the Bible literally and is not a Christian.
Thank you, Z. You’re simply fabulous. Do you even know what that stone throwing parable even represents . . . particularly given your Fundamentalist stance?
So, what are the Pope’s true colors exactly? I’m going with purple.
Would Jesus exclude women from the priesthood?
What would Jesus do?
Now go to your keyboards and type!
Arguably he did.
It’s why the Apostles are all men.
Would Jesus protect pedophiles?
TYPE…TYPE….TYPE!
There it is. Took you long enough. Congratulations on completing your tangent marathon. Bravo. It was a pretty special journey for you, I’m sure.
Ziegfried, everyone. Defender of the obvious, Savior of the Righteous. May his reign of ignorance be as light and full as Donald Trump’s luscious hair.
Truth is a bitch, ain’t it, Ryan?
Truth of what? Your stability?
Ok guys it’s been fun, let’s move it over to the new Weekend Thread k?
http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2016/02/weekend-open-thread-dunn-backs-fair-wage-anaheim-cop-union-backs-lou-coastal-commission-under-water/
And no more Pope v. Trump please.
Pope v. Trump, the landmark case that the Pope won. Easily.