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Earlier this year United States Attorney General Eric Holder testified that the first time that he had heard about the gun running Operation Fast and Furious, the cause of President Obama’s Murdergate scandal, was “just a few weeks” before his testimony. Documents released on Monday show that statement t be an outright lie. Mr. Holder received repeated briefings on the ill fated operation for more than a year before he stepped up to congressional microphones. Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) called on President Barack Obama to appoint a special counsel to determine if Holder lied to Congress.
“I write to urge you to instruct the Department of Justice to appoint a special counsel to determine whether Members of Congress were misled by the Attorney General during his recent testimony before the House Judiciary Committee,”
wrote Smith, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, on Tuesday.
“Allegations that senior Justice Department officials may have intentionally misled Members of Congress are extremely troubling and must be addressed by an independent and objective special counsel. I urge you to appoint a special counsel who will investigate these allegations as soon as possible.”
Internal Justice Department memos made public this week show Holder had at least heard of Operation Fast and Furious as early at July 2010. There is further evidence that Mr. Holder received frequent briefings on the Operation Fast and Furious He testified in May 2011 that he had probably learned of the program “a few weeks” before his appearance on Capitol Hill. In March 2011, President Obama characterized the operation, overseen by the Justice Department’s Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives(BATFE), as an ill-advised program. Its aim was to track guns smuggled from the US into Mexico, via straw buyers for the cartels, with the aim of disrupting the networks and nabbing the criminals. But instead the guns ended up in the hands of violent drug-runners, contributing to the deaths of as many as 200 Mexican nationals an US border patrol agent Brian Terry, as well as adding to the bloodbath in Mexico’s border regions.
Oh NO!!!!!!!!!! Obama MURDERED somebody???? And Holder KNEW about it and then LIED?????????? This is TERRIBLE!!!!
No wonder nobody takes you guys seriously.
I’ll leave it to our readers to counter this with the facts, too busy working…
Yes, I am the one lacking facts . . . that’s it.
Fortunately, for once the facts are very clear here, no matter what spin Holder’s handlers try to put on it. On May 3, 2011, Holder was clearly asked by Issa when Holder first became aware of the program called Fast and Furious. Holder said he heard about “Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks.” Holder’s words. However, documents prove that he was aware of Fast and Furious nearly a year before he claimed he was. Hence, Holder lied.
Unfortunately for you libs, the facts are not in dispute. So spin away, it doesn’t matter.
The one you so-called strict constitutionalists should be worried about is the murder of a U.S. citizen accused of crimes without due process.
I would disagree with you, but I simply can’t decipher your comment anon.
That’s because many Americans turn a blind eye to this sort of thing if the victim happens to be a Muslim.
No, that is because the construction of your sentence rendered it meaningless.
OK, I searched since 1/19/09 for “Murdergate.” 129 hits, the top ones all on Orange Juice.
Stop trying to make “fetch” happen. It’s not going to happen.
“Murdergate.” Stunning, even for Geoff, and that’s saying something.
I know. Let’s quibble over the title of his blog rather than the fact that Americans, and many more Mexicans, have been murdered and guns our Attorney General let walk across the border on his watch were either the murder weapon or found at the scene. Oh, and he lied about when he knew about the ill-fated plan. But you’re right, the title of Geoff’s blog is much more important.
The term “Murdergate,” which originated in my story in June of this year has now been adopted as the term to properly describe the Obama/Fast and Furious scandal by HotAir (http://hotair.com/); the National Review (http://www.nationalreview.com/); the Bottom Line (http://thebottomlineat.blogspot.com/); WittySpark (http://www.wittysparks.com/) and Free Republic (http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/*/index)
I am not the only one that think it a title that perfectly describes the abhorent behavior of the Obama Administration.
My condolences on the quality of the links.
Typical liberal responses to arguments. When the facts cannot be disputed, try to avoid the discussion by changing the subject. At least we know you cannot defend Holder for allowing a program that got innocent people killed by letting guns walk into drug cartel hands.
You know no such thing. Pointing out the hyperbole does not preclude later rebutting the proposition.
Frankly, hyperbole this huge calls out for the quicker response.
I’m still waiting for the rebutting. All we have is Vern’s deflecting by saying Holder was too busy to read about Fast and Furious. That’s better than Justice’s lame excuse (Holder misunderstood the question), but even if that is true it shows gross negligence on his job performance.
Keep flogging this horse. Republicans will sweep every seat in the country.
Well, okay, if nobody else will –
1. Obviously Fast and Furious was an idea that went bad but a lot of people thought it sounded sensible at the time, including Bush, Gonzales, and all the Republicans who worked for them, who did the same thing. Were you this upset with them too? (If you don’t already know about that, I’ll find you-all the link.)
2. I’m willing to believe Holder wasn’t lying if he didn’t remember, in the very lengthy briefs that AG’s get, hearing years ago about a program that had been in place since the previous administration and with which there had been no problems. Why would he “LIE” – he would know perfectly well that there would be records of his briefing.
Obama murdered, Holder lied … you abuse the English language.
3) You are so full of it Nelson, only a communist can equate you.
However, things are coking, people are upset about Bankers and their leftist god chosen owners, unions, and communist liars.
4) That is good!
5) You will not change it Nelson.
Maybe Issa asked him about “Murdergate” and he didn’t get the reference. Can’t imagine why!
“Why would he ‘LIE'”……… Hmmmmmm
Because liars forget their lies. That is why liars get always caught.
Please find the link because Fast and Furious didn’t start until Obama took office. There has been an overarching program dealing with illegal cartel arms that has existed for years, but Fast and Furious is all Holder and Obama. If you’re referring to the vague claims from the AP that a similar program existed under the Bush administration, please find a story with real details and not the left-leaning AP’s lame attempt to shift the focus off of Holder and Obama with no facts.
I guess 5 memos on the Fast and Furious program (including 4 weeks in a row) weren’t even enough to get Holder’s attention. What confidence he inspires.
http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/10/06/holder-received-at-least-5-memos-on-fast-and-furious/
Could you please cite something from a real news website? Andrew Breitbart can’t be trusted to give you an accurate count of his chromosomes.
You’re right, Greg – posting the actual memos themselves – no evidence whatsoever. Try looking at the link before making a foolish comment next time.
Try getting a reputable site to post it. Brietbart is known for fakery. I don’t trust a single thing he says or posts, verbal or graphic, and neither should you.
As I’ve thought about it more, though, I do think that perhaps this is where you and yours should devote all of your time for this next year. It’s a certain winner, after all.
This scandal is not going away – if Obama weren’t failing on every other level of measurable performance this alone would bring him down. Sad that you are not upset that a program that led to the death of Americans and then lying to congress is not enough to upset you. By the way, the documents were release last Friday by the White House itself, Breitbart’s site is only one of many reposting them.
And Rick Perry WILL BE OUR NEXT PRESIDENT.
Geoff, facts only matter to liberals when they can spin them to their cause. They can’t spin them here because they’re too damning of Holder and his department.
MURDERGATE!!!
Anyone who ever posts about anything else is part of the conspiracy!!!
You know, when someone brings up a scandal, whether one delves into the evidence depends on one’s assessment of their credibility — both when it comes to producing the evidence and construing the evidence. So, I’m not going to read things based on your assurances — sorry. If there’s something important there, I’m sure that I’ll hear about it. Again, my suspicion is that I’d be happy for you to put all of your eggs in this basket.
Hey, what have the responses from the government been? You’ve checked, right?
Way to deflect yet again. Thanks for making my point.
Ride this story to victory, podner. I support you in your spending all of your time on this.
From Media Matters;
Lamar Smith (R Tx) and media outlets are pointing to the following exchange between Holder and House Oversight and Government Reform chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA) as potentially perjurous:
ISSA: Mr. Attorney General, we have two Border Patrol agents who are dead, who were killed by guns that were allowed, as far as we can tell, to deliberately walk out of gun shops under the program often called Fast and Furious.
This program, as you know — and the president’s been asked about it; you’ve been asked about it — allowed for weapons to be sold to straw purchasers. And ultimately, many of those weapons are today in the hands of drug cartels and other criminals.
When did you first know about the program officially, I believe, called Fast and Furious? To the best of your knowledge, what date?
HOLDER: I’m not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks.
Smith and media outlets are claiming that this statement is contradicted by recently leaked memos sent to Holder in 2010 which reference the operation. According to the Justice Department, Holder misunderstood Issa’s question and thought Issa was asking when Holder learned about the controversial tactics used in the operation, not when he first saw references to the existence of the program. DOJ also says that the references to Fast and Furious came in routine weekly reports that often run to more than 100 pages. Even National Review has noted that the documents do not provide information on Fast and Furious tactics.
Have a heart, anonster, Geoff and Co. are attaching so much weight to this scandal! Why he even came up with the cute phrase “Obama Murdergate” which evidently has caught on in some remote quarters. Don’t you know this is gonna bring the Prez and AG DOWN???
I know – those Americans and scores of Mexicans dying at the hands of guns the government knowingly let walk into the hands of the cartels – nothing to see here folks, move along.
Hey, I have an idea – let’s really investigate what happened, find out who or what policy was responsible, and make sure it never happens again!
Oh. Not political enough?
Is that all there is? Is that all there is?
If that’s all there is, my friend, than let’s keep dancing.
We’ll take off our shoes and have a ball — if that’s all there is.
I was just thinking fondly of the Iran Contra scenario. Can anyone tell me who was in behind that? Bueller? A certain conservative icon, perhaps?
Maybe you should ask who massacred Indians to be more contemporary… Pisscallion.
I know, it is heartless of me to throw cold water on their GRAND CONSPIRACY, especially as you dig deeper it seems Bush had similiar programs, although it sounds like they didn’t even bother to track the guns that were “walking” under Bush, but Daryl Issa will look into this … later.
From CBS News;
Informant: ATF “gun walking” went on for years
(CBS News) The ATF, the agency that’s supposed to stop gun smuggling, turned a blind eye for years, as hundreds of guns “walked” across the Mexican border, CBS News has learned.
In a report on “The Early Show,” CBS News investigative correspondent Sharyl Attkisson said a confidential informant has come forward “with a fascinating story of how U.S. agents began letting guns ‘walk’ across the Mexican border – more than four years ago.”
ATF “Fast and Furious”: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010
Gun enthusiast and licensed dealer Mike Detty said he was working a Tucson, Ariz., gun show in early 2006 when a young Hispanic man bought a half-dozen semi-automatic rifles. He paid $1,600 cash.
Detty recalled, “But then he asked if I had more, and I told him that later in the month I would have another 20 from my supplier. And he said, ‘I’ll take ’em all.'”
Detty said he suspected the buyer was trafficking for a drug cartel. Tucson is just an hour from the Mexican border and a popular shopping center for smugglers.
Detty notified ATF – the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. To his surprise, ATF told him to go ahead with the big sale and sent an undercover agent to watch. Then, a local ATF manager made an unusual and dangerous proposition: He asked Detty to be a confidential informant.
Detty told CBS News, “He said, ‘Mike, I think we’ve got a real chance at taking out a powerful cartel. Can you help us?’ I made that commitment. And I really thought I was doing something good.”
Detty said he even signed an informant contract. As he understood it, he’d sell to suspected traffickers. Agents would track the weapons, expose the cartel’s inner workings, and then interdict the guns before they could ever get loose on the street – or so Detty thought.
Detty said his business, “Mad Dawg,” catered to this dangerous clientele in his living-room showroom. ATF agents watched and listened outside.
In an audio recording from a sale, Detty can be heard saying, “if your guys need more guns – ” A suspect replies, “I do.” Detty says, “You let me know.”
“I do,” the suspect repeats. Detty says, “And it’s cool with me, OK?”
“I want to buy all of them that are like that. All of them I can get,” the suspect says. Detty responds, “OK, I have a lot of them like that.”
“I want to buy them all,” the suspect responds.
Detty said ATF would have a small audio recording device. Sometimes it was hidden in a box of Kleenex,” he said. One of the biggest cases was code-named: “Operation Wide Receiver.”
Attkisson asked Detty, “Do you know about how many guns we’re talking about?”
Detty said, “It’s right around 450.”
Detty came forward after things didn’t work out as Detty had thought they would. Detty says he realized ATF was letting guns “walk” and instead of helping to take down cartels, he’d helped ATF arm them.
Attkisson asked, “When you look back and think in hindsight knowing what we know now – that all those guns were going on the street – what do you think about?”
Detty said, “It really makes me sick.”
Attkisson noted that all this happened under the Bush administration – three years before the start of “Fast and Furious,” the better-known ATF operation under the Obama administration that has come under scrutiny . “Fast and Furious” allegedly let thousands of weapons fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, and is now the subject of two investigations.
The “Fast and Furious” tactic of letting guns “walk” was exposed after Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered last December and at least two assault rifles from “Fast and Furious” were found at the scene.
As for its predecessor, “Wide Receiver,”: prosecutors finally, quietly, rounded up seven suspects last fall. No cartel leaders, just buyers who – critics say – should never have been allowed to put even one weapon on the street, let alone operate for years.
Detty said, “My first day as an informant, if they had said, ‘Here’s our plan, Mike: We’re going to let as many guns go across the border as they can haul, and we’re just gonna look and see where they pop up,’ I’d have said, ‘No way. That’s not a plan. That’s idiocy.’ ”
Attkisson said efforts to reach former Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez, who was in office when “Wide Receiver” started under the Bush administration, were unsuccessful. Meanwhile, his successor is under fire. Republicans are calling for a special prosecutor to investigate whether Attorney General Eric Holder told the truth when he testified earlier this year to Congress about when he first knew about ‘Fast and Furious”.
MURDERGATE!!!!!1!!
Don’t you mean OBAMA Murdergate????!!1!
OBAMASCARE!!!!111!!
This is another shiny object to throw in front of the electorate so they’ll be distracted from what’s actually going on. The destruction of the EPA (it kills jobs, you know), derailing the Consumer Protection Bureau, (it will kill jobs, you know), and fighting like hell so multimillionaires will pay the lowest taxes possible (otherwise jobs will be killed, you know). Next week it’ll be something equally irrelevant–wait and see.
I love how all the lefties on here completely ignore the innocent Americans and Mexicans killed by this program. I guess the EPA, corporate America, and other issues are way more important. I’m glad you all have your priorities straight.
If it was on the Free Republic….ITS GOT TO BE TRUE!!!!!
AND VERY IMPORTANT…….sorry for the “all caps” but I just figure that readers of those blogs can’t see very well, or maybe they have something against punctuation. It obviously gets Willis’s attention.
Update as reported by that highly conservative news source, CNN:
Holder insisted, as his Justice Department aides have for several days, that he was not inconsistent in his testimony.
“My testimony was truthful and accurate,” Holder said. “I have no recollection of knowing about Fast and Furious or of hearing its name prior to the public controversy about it. Prior to early 2011, I certainly never knew about the tactics employed in the operation.”
The tactics Holder referred to center on Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agents allowing illegally purchased guns to “walk” from Arizona gun stores to Mexico. The ATF plan was to track the weapons to Mexican drug cartels. However, many of the guns were lost in the operation, and two of them ended up at the scene where U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered.
New boss at AFT announces major shake-up
Holder insists that when he learned of those tactics he stopped “uncontrolled crossing of guns across the border,” and called for an inspector general investigation to get to the bottom of the matter.
Frederick Hill, a spokesman for the committee chaired by Issa, issued a statement in response to Holder’s letter.
“If Attorney General Holder had said these things five months ago when Congress asked him about Operation Fast and Furious, it might have been more believable. At this point, however, it’s hard to take at face value a defense that is factually questionable, entirely self-serving, and a still incomplete account of what senior Justice Department officials knew about gun walking,” Hill said.
Holder’s five-page letter included detailed explanations in response to various points raised by his critics.
He concluded by saying: “Until we move beyond the current political climate, where real solutions take a back seat to both political posturing and making headlines on cable news programs, and is deemed more important than actually solving our country’s difficult challenges, nothing is going to change. I hope we can engage in a more responsible dialogue on this subject in the future.”
Okay…
And your point, again, was…?
I see a spokesman from Issa’s committee agrees with your view of things, and was quoted in an article. Is that your shiny object?
The left has had a strangelhold on the use of language for the last few decades (a regressive tax is called a progressive tax, we hide racism by calling it diversity, we call for “tolerance” but only for the things in the left’s interests). I use language to accurately depict a deeply disturbing scandal (the Obama administrations mistaken and intentional release of guns directly to the Mexican drug cartels and the subsequent lies and coverup that follows – you try to steal the language back by denigrating the story as a “shiny object” indicating that I am so brainless I will be distracted by an object like a dog. Ironically, your denigrating and condescending language has little impact of those at whom it is aimed but breathlessly adopted by those trying to come up with a better retort than “oh yeah.”
I say that you abuse the language by repeating “Obama Murdergate” as though the President is guilty of some murder, and in doing this you are attempting to follow the Frank Luntz playbook, but in a particularly hamhanded way. Congratulations though on having the phrase picked up on other websites – that may be one reason that your posts are bringing a lot of hits here, which they are!
Calling Holder a liar – meaning an intentional liar – I think is also going a little overboard in this case, although that’s more arguable, and I concede it could depend on your general opinion of Holder, whom I consider a pretty honorable guy.
And no I wasn’t calling YOU a dog distracted by a shiny object, I was envisioning YOU trying to distract the rest of US with a shiny object. In fact now I think of it “shiny object” wasn’t the best choice of phrases; I was just saying there’s not much in this passage that backs up your view of things, except for the partisan Republican whom we would all expect to back you up.
[by repeating “Obama Murdergate” as though the President is guilty of some murder]…….. Hmmmmm
I hate to remind you that but — buck stops with Obama.
Fair enough Vern – we can both be reasonable even when we disagree (which is most of the time).
“The left has had a strangelhold on the use of language for the last few decades”……. Hmmmmm
Both left and right is guilty GW. It takes two to make language important.
If I say “negro Obama” I know that everyone here left/right will feel stigmatized even you GW.
Why?….. If the word “negro” is not offensive.
Because you too want strangelhold on the use of language.
That is why we need rapture so Jesus will come to take you a devil will come for atheist Nelson and I, as sovereign spirit, will rule and have good time.
2012 maybe.
Oh give me a freakin’ break…how about “estate tax” turned into “death tax”? How about “global warming” turned into “climate change”?
The left has a stranglehold on language? LOL. Do realize how ridiculously over the top that statement is?
“global warming” turned into “climate change”….. Left did it because it was obvious that the earth is cooling and they needed to continue their BS.
“estate tax” turned into “death tax” if you are taxed in your name after you are death it is death tax. [emphases added]
Only left want to tax death people because they cant scream.
Please take note of it “onan”
Freud called it “reaction formation.” Rove called it S.O.P.
Stanley: put up or shut up on “it is obvious that the Earth is cooling.”
No, actually, better than that: let’s wager on whether the mean global temperature for 2012 will be higher or lower than the historical median. If the Earth is really cooling — obviously, yet! — then the odds are in your favor. But I’ll give you even money.
No, Stanley…it’s the Bush Administration that turned “global warming” into “climate change” because they thought that “climate change” was a much less threatening phrase.
Give me your source on that one anon. It was the “climate change” scientists who had run around during the hot spell saying “see, see” that changed the wording when he hit a very cold spell.
onan,
Not true!.
It happened after that scandal with the email in England.
Gore needed to continue his propaganda so leftist said we do not know if it is warming or cooling but definitely climate is changing.
No one disagree on that but left claims that it is men made where evidence shows that it is cyclical as we rotate around the milky way and hitting some nasty dust and radiation.
Recently comet hit sun and there was nasty ejection from sun. Now major spot on sun is facing the earth and there are some expectation that ejection my hit the earth.
It is sun not men made as rev. Gore try to scare us with his BS religion.
From the Wikipedia article on Frank Luntz:
“Although Luntz later tried to distance himself from the Bush administration policy, it was his idea that administration communications reframe “global warming” as “climate change” since “climate change” was thought to sound less severe. Luntz has since said that he is not responsible for what the Bush administration did after that time. Though he now believes humans have contributed to global warming, he maintains that the science was in fact incomplete, and his recommendation sound, at the time he made it.”
Nice try ONAN,
The words: Although Luntz later tried to distance himself from the Bush administration policy, it was his idea that administration communications reframe “global warming” as “climate change” since “climate change” was thought to sound less severe.
The above clearly shows that Bush administration policy was “global warming” and that a yo-yo Luntz suggested to use “climate change” but it does not say whether the Bush administration policy changed it or Liberals media pick on it and run with it.
The phrase “climate change” was not invented by yo-yo Luntz.
Bush administration is gone and Leftist and Obama are still using “climate change”.
So if it was Bush then Obama should change it back to “global warming”/ “global cooling”.
In addition Luntz is moron mongoloid if he believe that “climate change” is man made because the recent ice age happened when humans were not capable with their technology to create it.
It is cyclical event, just wait when polar shift will happen because geological samples show that it too happens cyclically every 30,000 years so it is getting there.
Liberals do not like technology [period]
But they like their cell phones….. Idiots.
anon,
The libs are the ones who changed “global warming” into “climate change” when it became evident that the earth was not, in fact, getting warmer. So they created a term that cannot be refuted since the earth is constantly in “climate change” mode.
Holder’s response, (excerpted from Huffington Post);
“Holder launched into the first public response to allegations that he misled a congressional committee about his personal knowledge of the Fast and Furious program:
In the past few days, some have pointed to documents that we provided to Congress as evidence that I was familiar with Fast and Furious earlier than I have testified. That simply is not the case and those suggestions mischaracterize the process by which I receive information concerning the activities of the Department’s many components. On a weekly basis, my office typically receives over a hundred pages of so-called “weekly reports” that, while addressed to me, actually are provided to and reviewed by members of my staff and the staff of the Office of the Deputy Attorney General. The weekly reports contain short summaries of matters that the agencies deem of interest that week. Sometimes, the summaries are simply a sentence-long and other times they consist of a paragraph. In some cases, the summaries are of policy-related issues or upcoming events. In other cases, the summaries are brief, high-level reviews of pending matters or investigations. It is important to look at the documents supposedly at issue here and, for that reason, I have attached them to this letter and am making them public in the form they previously were provided by us to Congress. Please note that none of these summaries say anything about the unacceptable tactics employed by ATF.”
For the entire article and Eric Holder’s letter;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/07/eric-holder-obama-fast-and-furious_n_1000800.html
Holder lied and people died.
So now it’s either Holder or Obama who’s lying:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/13/obama_spoke_about_fast__furious_before_holder_claimed_he_knew.html
It’s almost like you didn’t read Anonster’s comment above.
Actually I was referring to the President’s own words in March 2011 where he said that Holder already knew about Fast and Furious, contrasted with Holder’s own words in May 2011 where he said he only heard about Fast and Furious a few weeks earlier (i.e. in April or May 2011). So, who’s lying now, Obama or Holder?
Holder’s response is just a few comments above. Read it.
You may also want to ponder the differences between “was aware of the existence of,” “knew about,” “was familiar with,” etc. Your argument seems to reply on fuzzing them up.