While those of us in the US wait for the New Year to commence as we briefly turn away from the recession to focus on college football bowl games all is not quiet in the Middle East. Along with the conservative Jerusalem Post, Haaretz is a liberal newspaper published in Israel I read for current events in that area of the world.
The Jerusalem Post reports that the Israeli Defense Force, IDF, has destroyed 40 smuggling tunnels in this current Gaza fighting which has cost the lives of 280 Hamas terrorists along with Gaza Strip residents and an unspecified number of IDF troops.
The current fighting in Israel should be on the front burner for the incoming Obama administration. I will be curious to see what diplomatic efforts, if any, Sec of State nominee Hillary Clinton will undertake based on the Hamas threatened Intifada.
By Amos Harel and Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and News Agencies
“After IAF strike kills at least 230 in Gaza, Hamas chief vows third Intifada has come
Hamas Political Leader in Damascus Khaled Meshal threatened revenge attacks after a series of Israel Air Force attacks left at least 230 dead and hundreds more wounded in Gaza, saying “the time for the third Intifada has come.”
Meshal issued a call to Palestinians in the West Bank to carry out suicide attacks against Israeli targets and to attack Israel Defense Forces soldiers.
“This Intifada will be peaceful for the Palestinians but lethal for the Zionist enemy,” Meshal said, adding that this ‘new Intifada,’ will “rescue Gaza and protect the West Bank.”
To read the entire Haaretz report go to the following link:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050359.html
Juice readers.
What involvement, if any, should we undertake with this centuries long Arab Jewish conflict?
What impact will this have on our efforts to (democratize) stabilize this region?
Do you foresee a Peace Agreement between the warring parties in your lifetime?
Larry,
The conflict there has been going on for a very long time. I do think that there can be peace, but it will take sophisticated diplomacy to pull it off. There are a number of peace groups that want to solve the fighting
http://www.mideastweb.org/mewgroups.htm
The MAJORITY of citizens in both countries want peace and stability.
The obama transition team has an interactive site http://www.change.gov
I went there to see what the focus is for Israel/palestine. Zero results using their search engine
http://change.gov/search/no-results/3de5eae5911ff4030bbf254d54373965/
It might be worth a trip for you to go post your questions there and see what kind of results you get. The site seems rather active and it also seems to be fairly responsive.
Email from the the OC coast:
“This Israeli offensive is not representative of ALL Israelis, let me just say right off the bat. Haaretz is my favorite news source from Israel, because they have the brass XXXXX to tell it like it is. As this report shows, clearly P.M. Ehud Olmert is perpetuating the agenda of the Protocols of Zion. This is not condoned by all Israelis, and is widely protested. The faces of the terrified little children fleeing Gaza is ominous: we are looking into the faces of the next generation of warriors against Israel. And we see in the faces of the little Israeli children the faces of the next generation of Israelis committed to fomenting war with one nation after another. I am afraid we must ask: Isn’t this precisely what the Zionists want? The majority of defense industries world-wide are Israeli, after all. Children, including now our own – born of war, living with war, whose existence depends financially on war – will no doubt carry on the never-ending cycle of creating conflict, as it is the conflict itself that ensures them the capital they (we?) need to sustain their desired place in this world. When will it ever end? In the coming year, please join me in praying and working for peace. I do a tremendous amount of reading and research related to hidden agendas of those who rule our world. If we are to be of any help to successive generations, we must know the truth so that we can pass it on to them. I thank all of you who continue to share with me, as I do with you, pertinent information and revealing articles about the Powers That Be and the little known havoc they are wreaking in our world. For those of you who are reluctant to seek and find the truth, your time is at hand. Start now. And please start by reading Israeli/Canadian Naomi Klein’s book, “The Shock Doctrine.” I know of no one who has not been affected by the collapse of Wall Street. Ms. Klein will educate you like nobody else I’ve met (and, yes, I have met her) as to who and why we are all being exploited for the financial gain of so very few.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050649.html
With all due respect to commentor #3 above.
I have seen photos of Israeli children being blown up on school busses as they are going to school. What did they do to deserve that fate?
I would argue that the Israeli’s are not the aggressor in the current Gaza fighting. Living thousands of miles away from the combat zone and not having shells falling on our homes almost every day we live in a very sheltered and protected area of the globe.
Sorry but this is not a video game we are watching. Bombs fall and people die or are maimed.
OK, I’ll take the bait Larry.
First off the shitty caption about “playing soldier” can be atributed to may politicians, the current president comes to mind with his jumpsuit manuever in San Diego (what a chicken shit for dodging the real war)and John McCain’s silly foray into Bagdad in 2006. Many military cmmanders will attest to Clintons deep understanding of the issues surrounding securty, in fact it gained her much respect among the “chicken hawks”.
As for what it holds for her as SOS. That is a tenuous subject, the state of affairs in the middle east are certainly volatile, I am certain that manyof the population want to just go on with their daily business, and that the ages old battle between the religions would go away.
Clinton, Obama and company certainly inherited a messy world.
duplojohn,
The picture isn’t Larry’s fault! He doesn’t know how to put pictures on his posts. I found it and put it there. Not that I agree with the sentiment of the picture, but I thought it made for a funny illustration of the main character of this post.
I do worry though that Hillary is a bit of a hawk…
duplojohn
This was a serious post and a valid question. The incoming administration will be challenged both in the Middle Easrt as well as our own hemisphere where Putin is sending war ships to Cuba.
And I would agree with you that the vast majority of the population in Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would prefer not keeping one ear and one eye open for incoming mortars or terrorist activities.
Thanks for adding your comment about president Bush but he will be on vacation in less than 30 days while this story will outlive this author.
And from our current Sec of State:
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said, “We strongly condemn the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and hold Hamas responsible for breaking the ceasefire and for the renewal of violence there.”
And from CAIR we received the following:
“Despite the public ‘green light’ given to the Israeli military by the Bush administration, American Muslims join our fellow citizens who respect international law and the sanctity of human life in repudiating this massacre carried out using U.S. taxpayer-funded weapons.
“It must be clear by now that the only future offered to the Palestinian people by the outgoing administration was one of perpetual subjugation and humiliation at the hands of the Israeli occupiers. Unfortunately, our nation’s timid response to this tragic episode will only serve to fuel anti-American sentiments in the Muslim world.
“We therefore call on President-elect Obama to demonstrate his commitment to change our nation’s current one-sided Mideast policy by speaking out now in favor of peace and justice for all parties to this decades-long conflict.
And from the U.N. we read:
At the United Nations, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon again condemned Israel’s excessive use of force and called for an immediate cease-fire.
“The frightening nature of what is happening on the ground, in particular its effects on children—who are more than half of the population—troubles me greatly. I have continuously stressed the need for strict observance of international humanitarian law,” he said.
PS: Can someone please find and post Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon’s condemnation against Hamas for their rocket attack inside Israel which triggered this assault?
Using sports as an illustration this is like a basketball player hitting the opponent to which the ref sees the man who was hit retaliate and calls him for a flagrant foul.
Or for those who enjoy football the same justice?applies. The ref throws the flag at the second man in the melee while the instigator is not punished.
“Can someone please find and post Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon’s condemnation against Hamas for their rocket attacks inside Israel which triggered this assault?”
Sure, let me handle that for you…
http://africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnN27284777.html
Forgiven; adn understood. But still distasteful.
How can we raise the bar with this kind of stuff, even though it attracts viewers/readers/listeners.
The last thing I want is OJ to become the “John and Ken” of the internet!
anon.
Thank you for the story link but there is one problem. Where was the UN condemnation against Hamas prior to the weekend response by the IDF? This barrage of rockets launched from inside Gaza started long before Dec 27th.
duplojohn.
I take this Middle East story very seriously and do my part to raise the bar.
Thanks for adding your comments, whether in support or in opposition to my positions or posts.
duplojohn,
I think you will be singing a different tune when you see what a hawk Hillary turns out to be.
Larry,
So are you saying that the UN condemnation of Hamas is not proportionate to the level of activity in the bombs they’ve lobbed into Israel?
Fine.
Then you can also admit that the Israeli response is COMPLETELY disproportionate to what Hamas has done. But then I doubt you are capable of reaching such an objective conclusion.
All you are is part of the tit-for-tat responses to the conflict, a failed strategy that has been going on for decades. This approach has gotten the parties nowhere. 8 years of the Bush administration and the situation is worse than it was when he took office. That is a complete failure of foreign policy.
All that said, how’s this for a UN condemnation of Hamas rocket attacks prior to the recent activity?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/955015.html
And so now your suggestion, or implication, that the UN has not condemned Hamas for the rockets has fallen away.
I also think these very wise words from George Washington in his 1796 farewell address are appropriate when analyzing our Middle East policy;
Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it?…
In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave.
It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. . . .
So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification.
It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.
Latest status as of Tue night in Israel.
Jerusalem Post reports:
Officials in the defense establishment have recommended to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to suspend military operations against Hamas in Gaza for 48 hours and during that time to review a number of possible ceasefire solutions for Operation Cast Lead.
According to reports, if the unilateral ceasefire were to fail, Israel would launch a ground offensive.
anon. Thank you for the above story link.
According to Haaretz that story, condemning the attacks by Hamas, was written back on Feb 17th.
While I had not read that article my sense is that the latest assault by the IDF was in retaliation to more recent Hamas activity.
For those not going to the Haaretz link here is part of the opening text:
UN humanitarian chief John Holmes gesturing during a visit to Sderot on Sunday. (Reuters)
Last update – 20:11 17/02/2008
UN humanitarian chief visits Sderot, condemns Qassam rocket fire
By The Associated Press
Tags: Qassam rockets, Sderot, UN
The United Nations’s humanitarian chief toured the Qassam-battered western Negev town of Sderot on Sunday, condemning the rocket fire and urging Gaza’s Hamas rulers to end the attacks.
And as long as we’re keeping track of who did what and when they did it and how forcefully they did it;
Israelis killed by Hamas rockets this entire year so far = 11
Non-combatant Palestinian women and children killed in current Israeli offensive = 62
Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-civilians30-2008dec30,0,1804115.story
anon.
Sorry but your yard stick doesn’t add up.
Let me ramble for a minute. An aircraft crashes killing 250 people in one flight vs 15 people killed in Santa Ana, CA between Jan and July 2008.
Do you feel safer walking the streets of Santa Ana or taking a commercial flight?
Hamas has been shelling Israel settlements for an extended period of time. If you cannot accomplish a truce through diplomacy then you have no option other than to take matters into your own hands. Hamas broke that Agreement. Should the IDF tell Hamas terrorists to cross the street away from civilians so that they don’t become collateral damage victims? There comes a time when you have to defend your citizens.
One child being killed is one too many. Perhaps the Arab woman will accomplish what took place after decades of fighting between Catholics and Irish Protesants in Ireland, costing thousands of lives, to eventually have a working peace. Get their men to put down their mortars so that their families can live in peace and harmony with their neighbors. The number of civilians killed over the weekend is due in part to Hamas playing that old game of locating terrorists with civilians. I would argue that the Israeli Air Force is one of the best, if not the best, in the world. However, as good as they are it is impossible to miss civilians when you are flying “a few thousand feet” above their heads.
PS: Not that it needs to be said but I am a strong supporter of the State of Israel
“Do you feel safer walking the streets of Santa Ana or taking a commercial flight?”
Larry,
I feel safe in both places. Santa Ana is not as bad as the Register and some folks around here would have everyone believe.
But to be truthful it isn’t as wonderful as some of our politicians would have us believe either.
It is somewhere in the middle.
“Not that it needs to be said but I am a strong supporter of the State of Israel”
Yeah we got that. You fall into the category of people George Washington railed against (see above).
Do you believe that the Palestinians should be given statehood?
anon.
Hello! They have a state. It’s called Trans Jordan where the majority have lived for decades.
anon.
We were not a super power in George Washington’s time nor did we have national security interests to consider in making foreign policy. How many years did the USA exist as a nation in George’s day? 18!
PS: Hamas policy is to “drive the nation of Israel into the sea.” That said should they again turn the other cheek? I think not. A two state solution can never begin to form until Hamas backs off their goals as stated publicly.
“A two state solution can never begin to form until Hamas backs off their goals as stated publicly.”
First off, Jordan is not the State of Palestine. Get real.
Secondly, the above quote effectively shows that you do not want the Palestinians to have their own state, since you place a condition on it that would be impossible to achieve 100%. So you leave yourself an out to forever oppose a Palestinian state. Why don’t you just display a moment of transparency and admit that? You simply don’t want the Palestinians to have statehood. Ever.
There are people in other countries who oppose Israeli statehood. Does that mean those countries have no right to exist?
anon.
Having interviewed representatives of CAIR and the Israeli Consulate in LA I am very familiar with the positions expressed by both sides.
You can watch those interviews 24/7 at no charge at http://www.cuttingedge-atalkshow.com
From the home page simply go to our Archive link and scroll down to Eyes on Islam parts #1 & #2 and Light on Israel.
At that MPAC Convention in Long Beach we interviewed Dr. Laila Al-Marayati spokesperson for the Muslim’s Women League and Hussein Ibish, Communications Director for the American Anti-Discrimination Committee. You might have seen Ibish on FOX news
In part 2 of the MPAC event we interviewed Aslam Abdallah, editor in chief, the Minaret magazine and the Muslim Observer newspaper. Others were radio and TV talk show host Mahdi Bray and Dr. Maher Hathout, senior advisor MPAC.
As such we have listened to the appeal from the Arab aside in this conflict.
Representing the Consulate General of Israel in the Light on Israel interview was Zvi Vapni, Deputy Consul General.
Respectfully, I have spent many hours researching the history of this statehood quagmire. Perhaps if the Palestinians had accepted the 1993 Oslo Accords where president Clinton met with Arafat and Rabin 15 years ago we would not be having this Internet discussion today. Hamas has refused to accept the existence of the state of Israel.
Do you refute that minor fact as you press me for a two-state solution?????
Larry,
Of course I don’t dispute the fact that Hamas has refused to accept the State of Israel. But your position basically boils down to this; as long as there is ANY Palestinian who opposes the Israeli state, then I oppose a two-state solution.
That, my friend, is what they call a non-starter.
Please enlighten me if I have all that wrong. And if I do, help us understand WHEN you would accept a two-state solution?
anon.
I recently finished reading the book entitled “A View From the Eye of the Storm” written by a fifth generation Israeli professor named Haim Harari. He agrees with you that to have peace “eventually” there will be a two-state solution. He writes that “One day there will be peace in the Middle East. No one knows when the day will come, or just what will happen before it arrives. But most thinking people know, more or less, what form it will have. It may happen within a few years or a few decades. It may be preceded by one or more future wars or simply by continued terror and agitation. But peace will almost certainly come.”
Let me skip to another part of the book.
As we are at the high point of the football season let me copy the opening from Chapter 23 where he writes: “The ball in on the one-yard line. It is tenth down and goal to go. This is the Super Bowl of the Middle East, between the Jihad Martyrs, who seem to have clinched first place in the Arab League, and the Jerusalem Chaos, the flag bearer for the Jewish teams. The playing field is one hundred yards long, as always in American football, but the action surrounds the one-yard line of Jerusalem. The Jihad has the ball.
Just a moment, you say. What do you mean tenth down? There are only four downs in American football. In this particular game, the rules are different. Whenever Jerusalem sacks the Jihad quarterback or intercepts the ball, the referee stops the game and team Jihad gets to start again from the one-yard line. For the Jihad, the number of potential downs is unlimited. And there is one more rule: If the Jihad scores even once, the Jerusalem team is executed. Under these rules, the term end zone is given a whole new meaning.”
Let me close with a final comment from the author where he says “There are certain immutable facts in the Middle East. Peace can arrive only if the Palestinians accept the existence of Israel.”
Until you accept that fact (or precondition if you choose) this discussion is now over.
Happy New Year
“There are certain immutable facts in the Middle East. Peace can arrive only if the Palestinians accept the existence of Israel.”
Right. And that will not be achieved through military action or terrorism. So to back the current actions of EITHER side is merely to endorse the status quo…which has gotten the parties nowhere.
anon. Wishing you a safe, healthy and prosperous New Year.
While I thought I would move on with this post I think today’s Register column by Deroy Murdock is worth shairing with you and other Juice readers.
He is discussing “todays’s conflict between Palestinians and Israelis in Gaza. Israel’s recent military retaliation violence would have been unnecessary had the leaders of Gaza capitalized on the excellent hand they were dealt.
Israelis withdrew from Gaza in August 2005. Israeli soldiers literally dragged devout Jews kicking and screaming from land they believed the Torah granted them. Authorities evacuated 21 Jewish settlements, dismantled 38 synagogues, and even excavated 47 deceased Jews from Gaza’s Gush Katif cemetary.
Gaza’s leaders had the opportunity of a millennium. “Free at last, free at last,” a Palestinian Dr. King could have said. “Now watch us flourish.” The world would have come running to help elevate this benighted, Denver size territory into an oasis from which the mirage of Middle East peace could blossom into reality–if Gazans had only asked. But no. Top Gazans had a different development strategy: Fling rocks at Israel.
I could not have stated the wasted opportunity for peace any better. Larry
anon, what do you and your Palestinian sympathizers propose, that we do what you have vowed and commit genocide? I agree with Larry, Hamas squandered the best chance for peace in Palestinian history.